Mind Without Measure

Mind Without Measure
By J. Krishnamurti
E-Text Source: www.jiddu-krishnamurti.net

New Delhi
    1st Public Talk 30th October, 1982 'The Root Cause of Confusion'
    2nd Public Talk 31st October, 1982 'Conflict, Duality and Observation'
    3rd Public Talk 6th November, 1982 'Factors of Disorder'
    4th Public Talk 7th November, 1982 'In Ending, There Is a New Beginning'

    1st Public Talk 20th November, 1982 'The Human Condition'
    2nd Public Talk 21st November, 1982 'The Movement of Becoming'
    3rd Public Talk 27th November, 1982 'The Ending of Sorrow'
    4th Public Talk 28th November, 1982 'The Meaning of Daily Living'

    1st Public Talk 25th December, 1982 'The Nature and Content of Thought'
    2nd Public Talk 26th December, 1982 'Life Is a Movement in Relationship'
    3rd Public Talk 1st January, 1983 'On Time'
    4th Public Talk 2nd January, 1983 'Meditation Is the Expression of Daily Activity'

    1st Public Talk 22nd January, 1983 'Where There Is a Cause, There Is an End'
    2nd Public Talk 23rd January, 1983 'The Good Mind'
    3rd Public Talk 29th January, 1983 'Is There a Psychological Evolution'
    4th Public Talk 30th January, 1983 'What Is a Religious Mind?’

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New Delhi
1st Public Talk
30th October, 1982
The Root Cause of Confusion

If one may point out, this is not a lecture as it is commonly understood, a discourse on a particular subject with its instructions. This is not a lecture, but rather a conversation between two people, between you and the speaker, not on a particular subject, instructing, guiding and shaping your thought or opinions. We are two friends sitting in a park on a bench talking over together their problems. So please bear that in mind throughout the talks, tomorrow and next weekend that two friends, you and the speaker, who are concerned deeply with what is going on in the world, their confusion, the chaos, almost anarchy that exists throughout the world. But we are talking over together what is happening in this part of the world.

I wonder if you have a friend with whom you talk, with whom you expose your own feelings, your own concepts, your ideas and disillusionment and so on. If you have such a friend, and I hope you have, if you have such a friend with whom you are discussing, you are talking over together, neither one nor the other is trying to persuade the other, persuade, guide, or shape his particular thought. So if you are willing, we are going to talk over together in that manner, exploring, enquiring, never accepting what another says, never expressing one's own strong opinions, but rather without any bias, in great friendship, which means with great affection respecting each other, without any arriere pensee, that is, having some kind of hidden thought, hidden motive. So we are together this evening going to enquire, not asserting, because in this enquiry there is no authority. The speaker has no authority, he is not your guru. Thank god! He is not a lecturer, asserting certain points of view, or introducing a new kind of philosophy, or ideas. This must be made perfectly clear, that he is not an authority, but rather together we are going to enquire into what is happening in this country. That is, what is happening not only outwardly, in the world of politics, economics, business and the environment, but also we are going to talk over together as two friends their own inward life - their confusion, their misery, their suffering and so on. So please we are both, you and the speaker, are responsible, as two friends, not the speaker is lecturing, telling you what to do, or what to think, or proposing a new set of systems, ideologies, and so on. Both of us are equal, both of us are concerned with our own lives, and the lives of others.

So first let us look at what is happening around us, outwardly, without any bias, not as an Indian, not as a German, Englishman, American, or Russian, we are human beings, whatever country we belong to. We are human beings facing a very dangerous world, facing a great deal of uncertainty, confusion, and when the mind is confused we seek some kind of authority as a means of security. So we are first going to consider, if you will, what is happening here.

As one observes, the country is going through a great confusion, great uncertainty; there is chaos, people have no direction, but unfortunately we are conditioned when we are confused, uncertain, insecure, to try to and find a solution in the past, go back to our old traditions. This is what is happening throughout the world. There are the fundamentalists who accept the Bible as their authority, the fundamentalists of Islam who look to the Koran, there are the fundamentalists who look to Marx. So when we are uncertain, confused, greatly disturbed, we look to some kind of authority, some kind of book, to the past, to find a direction. Now in this country, as you observe, there are not many books - or rather too many books, too many leaders. So our tradition is uncertain. All the leaders, all the gurus, all the so-called saints have not helped mankind because we are actually what we are at the moment.

So what is the root cause of all this confusion? Because when one can find the cause then we can end it. A cause has an end. Right? I hope we are following each other. So we are asking, what is the cause, or causes, of this confusion, this lack of integrity, this sense of desperate degeneration, what is the root of all this. Most of us play with symptoms; we say it is the overpopulation, bad governments, right throughout the world it is the same, lack of leadership, lack of morality. These are all symptoms, but one never asks, what is the cause of all this. And when you begin to enquire into the cause of it, each one of us will give different opinions; the more learned you are the greater assertion of the cause, or causes. But we are not very learned people, we are ordinary people, we are laymen, we are not very bright, very intelligent, but we are caught in this, in this great turmoil that exists in the world and here. There are wars, every nation, every group, is preparing for war. I wonder if you are aware of all this. Every country, specially the industrial countries, are supplying armaments to the rest of the world. The other day in London on television an industrialist was being interviewed, and the industrialist said, 'We send abroad eighty per cent of our armaments and twenty per cent we keep.' This is happening in all the industrial countries. And nobody says, 'Why do we have to have war? Why do we have to kill each other, murder each other?' They are talking about stopping nuclear war, but not ending all wars. Why? Why have human beings reduced themselves to this condition? Please, this is very important to ask. Why do you have to kill other people, for what? For your nation? For your particular group? The idea of war is a great historical process which we have accepted, and it has become a great reality, but the root of it is we live in an illusion, an illusion that our country must be protected. What is your country? Please ask these questions. What are you protecting? Your house? Your hope? Your ideas? Your bank account? And the whole world is degenerating, going to pieces, and we are not enquiring into fundamental causes.

So we are going together, as two friends, please bear this in mind, as two friends, who are not against each other, who are friendly, who have a certain affection for each other, and are facing this problem, which is, why have we human beings become what we are, confused, uncertain, following any leader that comes along, the country breaking up, fragmentation going on, the Sikhs, the Hindus, the Muslims and so on, what is the cause of this?

Are you waiting for the speaker to tell you? Or, is your mind, your brain active enough to enquire, not depend on the speaker to tell you? We will talk over together, which means your mind, your brain must be as active as that of the speaker. And it can only be active if you are not saying, I am Hindu, Buddhist, whatever it is. We are free to enquire. Enquiry means first looking what is actually going on, not a theory of what is going on, actually observing with your heart, with your mind, with your capacity, with your energy to look.

Now what is the cause of it? Is it that we have looked to others to help us, we have looked to political leaders, religious leaders, economic leaders, with their particular ideas, with their particular systems, so that you are always depending on others to guide you, to tell you what to do. Is that the root cause of this? Or do you blame the environment? You understand my question? Do you blame the environment? That is, the government, no proper leader, no righteous guru, those are all the environment, something outside of you. Is that the cause of this? Which means that you have relied entirely on authority: authority of tradition, authority of books, authority of leaders, gurus and so on. So when you depend you gradually become weak, you become feeble, you are incapable of thinking clearly because you depend. This is a fact. Newspapers tell you what to think, all the meetings that you attend, the discourse, instruct.

So self-reliance, the sense of responsibility for oneself, not depending on another, that may be the root cause of this, that we have become irresponsible because we depend. You understand the fact of this? Just a minute, sir, you can ask questions perhaps at the end of the talk, if we have time, but please quietly, you and I are talking over together. The speaker is not asserting a thing, he doesn't want you to follow him, he is not your guru, he is not your leader, but you and I, the speaker, who wants to show a different way of living, not that you must accept it, but enquire, put your mind and heart into this to find out why we have become what we are, so utterly selfish, utterly self-concerned. And in that state of mind and brain you ask, what is the root cause of all this, you are incapable of enquiry, finding out because our conditioning is to depend, to be directed, to be told what to do, what to believe. This is a fact, isn't it?

So is it possible to be a light to oneself, and not depend on a single person? Of course you depend on the milkman, on the postman, on the policeman who keeps order at a crossroad, you depend on a surgeon, on a doctor, but inwardly, psychologically to think clearly for oneself, to observe one's own reactions and responses. And ask if one can be completely a light to oneself. You understand what that means, to be a light to oneself. Not self-confidence, not self-reliance, self-confidence is a part of selfishness, it is a part of egotism, but to be a light to oneself which requires great freedom, a very clear brain, not a conditioned brain. We will go into the activity of the brain, what is the relationship of the brain to the mind - we will go into all that presently. But one must be very active, not merely intellectually, which is verbally, active with one's ideas. The speaker does not mean that. To have an active brain, to challenge, to question, to doubt, that means to have energy, but when you depend on others you lose energy. That's what is happening.

So we are asking if this is the root cause of all this confusion, uncertainty, insecurity, this breaking up of this country into parties, which is all indicates a state of chaos. And we are responsible for it. Each one of us is responsible for what is happening.

So we are going together seriously, amicably, with a great sense of affection for each other, to enquire and see if we cannot go beyond all this. So you are here for that purpose, not to be instructed, not to be told or given a direction. We have had all that in the past, and the result is this utter lack of personal responsibility.

So let's proceed from there. This is the cause. Where there is a cause there is an end. If I have cancer, which is the cause of my pain, it can be removed. So where there is a cause to any problem, there is an end to that problem. But we must be very clear of the causation of a particular problem, or many problems. Not just merely explain away verbally the problems. So please we are listening to each other, actively, without any bias. If that is the cause of this present degeneration of mankind, then can this degeneration be put an end to? That's the problem.

So is your mind, your brain, conditioned? You understand that word, being conditioned? When we are born, from the moment we are born the brain is being conditioned, shaped, by tradition, by your religion, by the literature you read, by the newspapers, by your parents, you are being conditioned. The brain is conditioned. It has lived for millions of years, it has had a great many experiences, it has faced wars, sorrow, pleasure, pain, agony, great disturbance, and it is conditioned as a Hindu, it is conditioned as a Sikh, as a Muslim, as a Christian. Why is it conditioned? Please enquire with me. Why is one's brain conditioned - if you are aware that it is conditioned. You are conditioned, aren't you? You call yourself a Hindu, and I call myself a Muslim - why? Your parents, your books, have told you, you are a Hindu, I am a Muslim. That is, years of propaganda, two thousand years of Christianity, the repetition of a certain formula, rituals, has conditioned the brain; the Muslim's brain is also conditioned, like the Hindu brain, with his rituals, with his authority, with his knowledge of previous instructions and so on. So we are enquiring, please listen to this, we are enquiring seriously, whether your brain, which is conditioned, if you are aware of it, can that condition be resolved. Do we both of us see actually that we are conditioned? Right? Do we both of us agree to this at least? Yes? If you are conditioned it means you are being conditioned, it becomes mechanical. Right? You repeat that you are a Hindu, I am Muslim, I am a Marxist and so on. So your brain becomes mechanical, routine, repeating the same thing over and over again, like, war is necessary, leadership is necessary, you must depend - a child depends on his mother up to a certain age but after that he leaves - but we, through dependency, even when we are grown-up become infantile. Right?

So we are concerned first whether the brain can be freed from its conditioning. You understand, if it is conditioned, the speaker as a Muslim and you as a Hindu are going to have war, we will fight each other, we will kill each other. That's what is happening. And if you like to live in a state of perpetual war, that's your affair; but if you are serious, concerned with human existence, with the future of man, one must learn whether it is possible to free the brain from its conditioning. There is a whole group of people who say the brain cannot be freed from conditioning, it will always be conditioned but modify it. That is one of the theories of communism, of Marxism, that the brain can never be free from its conditioning and therefore condition it in a new way, which is Marxism, read what Marx has said, accept him as your god - perhaps not as god - as your saint and so on. If I am a Christian, I have been conditioned, I accept the Bible, and so on. So first do we realize, the two of us talking together as friends, do we realize actually that our brains are conditioned?

Then we will ask, if we are serious, whether it is possible to free the brain from being a Hindu, a Muslim, a Christian, a Marxist. We are human beings, not labels, but labels count a great deal. That's what is going on - the Sikhs wanting their own petty little affair. So first, please realize as two friends who are talking over together, great friendship, that our brains are conditioned, and we see the consequences of being conditioned: where there is conditioning there is no freedom, there cannot be love, there cannot be affection. So it is imperative, absolutely essential for the future of humanity that we are concerned with the brain which is conditioned. If one is aware of that then we can proceed whether it is possible to free the brain.

The relationship between the brain and the mind exists, is realized when the brain is completely free, then the brain is the mind. We will go into that later as we go along. So we are conditioned. And we are asking, whether it is possible to be free. Don't say, it is, or, it is not, because that would be absurd. Whereas if you are enquiring then you are learning, not being instructed, you are learning for yourself through enquiry, through investigation. Right?

So let's find out. Where do you begin? Where do you begin to enquire whether it is possible to free the brain from its conditioning? You understand? That is, you are enquiring whether it is possible not to be a Hindu, or a Muslim, or a Sikh, but a human being, with all the travail of humanity, the anxieties, the uncertainties, with the depth of sorrow and pain. So where do you begin? Do you begin to enquire from the outside, or do you begin to enquire from inside? You understand my question? That is, is the outside, the world, not the physical world, not nature, but the world which humanity has created, is that world different from the world in which you live inside? Do you understand my question? The society, the morals, the systems, the outward world, is that different from you? Or, you have created it, you who want security, you who want to have different status, the more powerful, the less powerful, the more greedy and the less greedy, the religious saint and the ordinary man - you have created all this. So please look at this: the world is you, and you are the world. Right? Is that a fact to you, or just an idea? You understand, it is very important to understand this. We, in our disorder, in our confusion, in the desire for security, we have created a world outside of us, a society which is corrupt, immoral, confused, everlastingly at war, because we ourselves, in ourselves, we are confused, we are in conflict, we want to kill somebody out of anger, violence, because we want to protect our image as Hindus. Right? And the Muslim wants to protect his image as a Muslim, and the Christian does the same thing. The speaker has just returned from Europe. He has visited many countries; each country says, British, British, British; French, French, French. Right? They never consider as human beings, but isolated entities, isolated groups. That's part of our conditioning.

So the speaker is asking, where do you begin, knowing that you have created this world. So we have to begin with yourself, not with the alteration or systems of the outer world, which is not looking for a new leader, new system, new philosophy, new gurus, but looking at yourself, as you are. So can you observe yourself as you would observe your face in a mirror? You understand my question? Can you observe your reactions, your responses? Because your reactions and your responses are what you are. So let's begin there to enquire.

Life is a process of relationship. There is no life without relationship. You understand? This is a fact. You may be a hermit, you may be a monk, you may withdraw from all society, but you are related, as a human being you cannot escape from being related. Right? Is this clear? You are related to your wife, to your husband, to your children. You are related to your government, you are related to the hermit who withdraws because you feed him, and he is related to his ideas. So relationship is the basis of human existence. Without relationship there is no existence. You are either related to the past, which is to all the tradition, to all the memories, to all the books, or you are related to some future ideation. So relationship is the most important thing in life. Do we see that? Not verbally, not intellectually but actually with your heart and mind, do you see the truth of that? So we are enquiring, what is your relationship with another, however intimate or not. Go on, sir, we are enquiring, sir, don't go to sleep.

What's your relationship? Is it that we are from childhood hurt, wounded, psychologically? Are you wounded, hurt, therefore from that hurt, from that psychological wound you bring about violence? And the consequence of being hurt inwardly, wounded, is that you enclose yourself more and more not to be hurt. And your relationship with another then becomes very narrow, limited. So we must first enquire whether it is possible to find out whether you can never be hurt. So we are enquiring, what is the root of being hurt, what is the cause of it. When I say, I am hurt, my pride is hurt, what does that mean? My teacher has hurt me, my parents have hurt me - we are all hurt, we are all wounded, by an accident, by a word, by a look, by a gesture. So what is it that is hurt? When you say, I am hurt - what is that 'I' which is being hurt? Is it not an image that you have built about yourself? Haven't you got images? The brain is always - what a noisy town this is. All right let's go on. Probably it is a demonstration against this meeting! The whole world wants to demonstrate about something or other.

So we are asking a very serious question: what is it that is hurt. The brain has the capacity to create images. The images are the illusions we have, illusions like war, it is an illusion, we accept it. We accept killing another human being, another life, as part of the image which we have. We have many, many images, and one of the images is, I am being hurt. So we are enquiring what is the entity that is being hurt. The entity is the image that I have built about myself. Right? I think I am very clever, a great man; you come along and tell me 'Don't be an idiot', I get hurt. Where there is comparison there is hurt. You follow all this? When I compare myself with somebody who is more clever, more bright, more intelligent, that is, when there is measurement there must be hurt. So please enquire whether you can live without comparison, without measurement. You understand my question? We are always comparing ourselves with somebody. It begins at the school level, when the boy is told he must be as good as his brother, that is the comparison, that is measurement. And that process continues throughout life. So is it possible, please enquire - it is possible to live without comparison, without measurement? This is a tremendously complicated question because the word 'better' is measurement, the word 'more' is measurement, 'self-improvement' is measurement. So find out whether it is possible to live without measurement, which means without comparison. Part of meditation is to enquire into not becoming, which is measurement. We will go into that when we come to that.
So is it possible in our relationship with each other, however intimate it is, not to have measurement? That means your brain must be active in your relationship, not just routine: she is my wife - or husband - you know, carry on like a machine. So one must enquire into our relationship, whether in that relationship there is hurt, and that hurt brings about greater fear, greater enclosure within oneself, and therefore isolation. You follow? Isolation, each country is isolating itself - Britain is isolated, France is isolated, America is isolated, in their way of looking at life. So where there is isolation there must be conflict. If I am a Jew and you are an Arab, which is, you are isolated as an Arab, and I am isolated as a Jew, we are going to fight. So please see the importance of this. As long as there is isolation, either outwardly, or inwardly, there must be conflict.

And we are asking, the brain has been conditioned in isolation as a Hindu, as a Buddhist and so on. So to enquire into this question, whether the brain can resolve its own conditioning, one must enquire into relationship. What is your relationship with another, with your wife, with your husband, with your children. Begin there, near at home, not far away. You know, sirs, to go very far you must begin very, very near. To go very far you must put your house in order. So can you be aware, alert, so that you are watching your relationship, and learning from that awareness how you respond, what are your reactions. That is life, that's everyday life. And that requires constant attention to every reaction, every thought, but most of us are so lazy, and we have become lazy because we are dependent on others.

So please, as two friends, we have gone into a certain question of relationship, and we will enquire further into the nature of that relationship, whether the human brain, whether it is your brain or it is the brain of mankind. This is really a very serious question: is your brain an individual brain, or, the brain of humanity? When you say, it's my brain - when you say, it's my consciousness, is it your consciousness, individual consciousness, or, it is the consciousness of mankind. I will go into it very, very briefly now, you can enquire into it. You suffer, you are uncertain, you believe, you are anxious, you are in agony, pain. That's what you are, your belief, your knowledge, your character, that's what you are. And that's exactly what your neighbour is, he suffers, he goes through agonies, sorrow, pain, trouble. Right? So is your consciousness separate from the rest of mankind? No, of course not. So please if you admit that, if you see the truth of that, then are you an individual? You may think you are an individual because you are dark, short, peripheral activity makes you think you are an individual. But deeply, are you not the rest of mankind. So when you realize that, the truth of that, you will never kill another because you are killing yourself. Then out of that comes great compassion, love.

We have talked for an hour. Do you want to ask questions?

Q: What is an impersonal action?

K: What is an impersonal action. First of all, what is action? What do you mean by that word 'action'? Either you act according to a pattern, or act according to some idea, act according to your experience, which is the past, act according to your knowledge, which is the past, or act according to some ideal which is in the future, or act according to your convenience. So what do you mean by that word? The word means acting, not having acted, or will act. But action means acting in the present, whether that action is correct, true, actual, depends on the quality of your brain, of your heart, not just theory. First, therefore, please sirs, enquire into what is action. We are all acting from morning until night. You are sitting there, and the speaker is sitting here, you are listening and he is speaking, that's an action, whether you listen, that's an action, or whether you don't listen, that's an action, how you listen is an action, whether you are actually listening or you think you are listening.

And what do you mean by 'impersonal'? You see we have concepts. What do you mean by 'person', what do you mean by that word 'person'? The word, name, the form, are you an individual and then ask, can I be impersonal, are you an individual? I know you all think you are individuals. You whole tradition, religious and in every other way tells you are an individual - are you? Are you not the result of centuries of human endeavour? You see you don't want to question all those things. You are afraid if you are not an individual, what would happen to you. Individuality is a form of isolation, and therefore we are all at each other's throat all the years of our life. We have no love for each other. We talk about the love of god, but we don't love each other. And besides god is the invention of man. Right? I know you are all believers in god probably, but you have invented that entity. If god does exist, and if he has created us, what a miserable god he must be. Right? You don't want to look at it that way. You worship an illusion, and you like the illusion. You think in illusion there is security, and you are finding out there is no security in illusions. Your god has betrayed you, and yet you worship him. The Christian god, the Hindu god, the Muslim god - you follow? It's all so absurdly childish.

So please, sirs, let's find out for ourselves, if we can be a light to ourselves, not depend on anyone psychologically, inwardly. Not depend on your wife, or your husband, or your guru, on a book, but to live a life free, full of vitality, energy, so that your brain is active, not mechanical. Our brains have become now a form of computers, but the computer is far more efficient, far more quick. We will go into that if we have time. So please do enquire into a different way of living.

I think that's enough, sir, for this evening.

New Delhi
2nd Public Talk
31st October, 1982
Conflict, Duality and Observation

May we continue with what we were talking about yesterday evening? Communication with each other, to communicate something to another, unless they are really willing to listen, however friendly, however good intentioned, unless one is able to listen to another, communication becomes rather limited, misunderstood and apt to be misguided. So we are going to talk over together this evening many things; and one has to use words to communicate, of course unless we are extraordinarily telepathic, without words we can communicate, I am afraid that is not possible, but words are necessary. Each one uses words rather casually, without much intonation, quality behind that word, and one doesn't listen to another actually. If you do listen there is always a defence, there is always a resistance to anything that is said, something new, and perhaps over which you have not thought, so the immediate reaction is to resist, or not listen, because it might be disturbing.

So there is an art of listening. That is to listen to what is being said, not interpret what is being said to your own convenience, to your own traditional language, but if you understand English, I hope some of you do, then to listen to the word, the meaning of that word, to see if we understand each other. And to listen one has to have not only a certain quality of attention but also a sense of affection, a sense of trying to understand what the other fellow is saying. A communication is possible at depth, as well as superficially, when both of us are concerned about the same subject, or the same idea, the same concern about a certain thing, then we are both in communication with each other. But if you resist, as perhaps you are going to resist a great deal to what the speaker is going to say, then communication is not possible. And as you are all good enough to come to the talk - I don't know why, but you are here.

So one has to learn the art of listening. When you listen to music which you like, there is no resistance, you go with it, you shake your head, you clap your hands, you do all kinds of things to express your appreciation, your understanding, your understanding of the quality of the music and so on. There, there is not any form of defence, any form of resistance, you are going with it, flowing with it. So please in the same way kindly listen, not to be instructed, not to be told what to do, but to understand what is being said, not the person who is saying it, but what is being said. If you are merely concerned with the person, that is, with the speaker, and not with what is being said, then you are not in communication with him. So forget the person altogether. He is just a telephone. You understand? So that you are actually listening to what is being said, and discover for yourself if you are resisting, and why you are resisting. One resists or there is a defence because you don't want to be disturbed, or you are not accepting anything new, you don't want anything new, or you don't really care what is being said. So please, as we are going to talk over together like two friends, please listen very carefully. Learn the art of listening, not to the speaker only, but to your wife, to your husband, to your children, to the birds, to the wind, to the breeze, so that you become extraordinarily sensitive in listening. And when you listen you capture quickly, you don't have to have a lot of explanations and analysis and descriptions, you are flowing with it.

So please as we are talking together as two friends, sitting in a park, or in a wood, quiet, birds are singing, plenty of dappled light coming through the leaves on the floor, and there is a sense of appreciation of beauty, and when you so listen the miracle takes place - when you listen. It is like sowing a seed and if the seed is vital, strong, healthy, and the ground is properly prepared, it inevitably grows. So if one may point out, one has to learn the art of listening. And if you listen very, very carefully you capture it so quickly, the meaning of what the other is saying. Perhaps many of you have listened to the speaker for a number of years, unfortunately, and you get used to it. You get used to his language, his gesture, how he looks and so on, and you gradually slip off. And you say, 'Why haven't I, after years of listening to this man, changed?' - because they have actually not listened with their depth, with their heart, with their mind, with their whole energy. So don't blame the speaker but rather learn, if one may suggest most respectfully, the way of listening. There is great beauty in listening, to a bird, to a wind among the leaves, and to a word that is spoken with depth, with meaning, with passion.

We were saying yesterday that the future of man is at stake. And the future man has no existence in isolation - isolation as a nation, isolation as a group, isolation in religions, isolation as an individual, and isolation in consciousness. For most of us thinking is individual. What I think, what you think, there, there is a difference, a division, your opinion against my opinion, my thought against your thought, or your husband's thought, your wife's thought. So thinking is not individual. Thinking is the ordinary factor of the poorest, ignorant man, and the greatest Noble prize winner, scientist, they both think. But we have the idea that your thinking is yours, but whereas thinking is the nature of man. Clear, this point? So when you think, it is not your individual thinking, it is the capacity of the brain to be active and respond in words, in thought. This is the nature of man. But we have reduced it as, my thinking opposed to your thinking, or you agree with my thinking, or I agree with your thinking. This must be made very clear in these talks: we are thinking together, it is not your thinking and you accept my thinking. We are thinking together, which is very difficult because for most of us we have got strong opinions, biased, conclusions, we have experienced so much, so we think it is our experience, our conclusion. So when a new outlook is put before you, you refuse to look at it.

So thinking is the nature of man, it is not your thinking or my thinking. This must be seen very clearly. You observe when you talk to a poor, illiterate, ignorant man, he is also thinking according to his knowledge, his perception, his activity, as the scientist, the greatest scientist, he thinks according to his experience, to his knowledge, and discovers something new and so on. This is the general factor of all human beings that thinking is not yours or mine, it is thinking. Can we go on from there? We understand each other, at least even intellectually, even verbally?

And when you observe what is going on in the world, outside of you, each country is isolating itself, each group is isolating - the Muslim, the Hindu, the Buddhist, the Tibetan, the Russian, the American, and so on, the Chinese, I don't have to enumerate all the names. This is what is happening, each group is isolating, one follows one particular guru, another, another guru, and so on. This factor of isolation is destroying the world, is separating humanity. This is an actual fact that is taking place in the world. Then inwardly each of us thinks we are separate. Tradition, religion, all that has conditioned our thinking that we are separate human beings. Of course we are separate in the sense that you are a man, you are a woman, I am a man, or I am a woman, you are a man, tall, short, light, black and so on, but we are talking at a depth. That is, human consciousness is general, is shared by all human beings, all human beings suffer, go through great agonies, shed tears, have this sense of loneliness, pain, anxiety, depression, uncertainty - the poorest and the most sophisticated, erudite human being, all have this general factor, they all share this. This is so. So our consciousness is not yours or mine, it is the consciousness of all human beings. This is very difficult for most people to see this, and to see the reality of it because we have been so conditioned - in Christianity you are a separate soul, here you are atman, you reincarnate over and over again until you reach god knows what. It is still the emphasis that you are separate, individual - is that so? We are questioning it. Therefore you have to find out, question, doubt, ask. Which means you are listening without any defence, without any resistance to this truth - we are using the word correctly. It is the truth. You may at the periphery, on the outside, have certain mannerisms, certain habits, certain tendencies, capacities, but if you move from the outer to the inner we all share the same common issues. So unless we realize this, not verbally, not intellectually, but in our heart, in our minds, in our blood, we are going to destroy each other, which is going on. So are we capable of listening to this fact - not your opinions about the fact, but the actual fact that our consciousness, which is the content - our consciousness is made up of its content, isn't it. Are you all puzzled? Are we all thinking together, or we are off to somewhere else?

Look: a great many books have been written about consciousness, there are specialists about consciousness, conferences about consciousness, all over the world, and scholars, experts who have studied, not themselves, but other poor victims, they meet and discuss. But we are not professionals, at least I am not, but one has enquired into the nature of one's own consciousness, observed the content of it, because without the content there is no consciousness. Right? Are you following all this? Are we moving together? Consciousness is made up of one's beliefs, one's tendencies, one's secret desires, anxieties, beliefs, loneliness, and so on. That is the content which makes up consciousness; without the content there is no consciousness as we know it. If you observe your own consciousness, that is, what you are - your consciousness is what you are - your fears, your desires, your pleasures, your loneliness, depression, anxiety and all that, that is what you are, what you believe - you believe that you are god, you are that, and so on. So the content makes consciousness. And that consciousness is conditioned, and since it is conditioned it must be in conflict. Aren't you all in conflict, of some kind or another? Conflict being dissension between two people, conflict with oneself, 'what is' and 'what should be', that's a conflict. A man who is violent, as all human beings apparently are violent, the content of our consciousness is part of that violence. And conflict arises when there is a duality. That is, I am violent, I should not be violent; or I have the ideal of non-violence, which this country loves - the idea of non-violence, or practising non-violence, but the fact is you are violent. That's a fact. The other is not a fact. I wonder if you see this.

We must go into this very carefully because we are trying to understand why human beings live perpetually in conflict. Why there is a contradiction - I am, I should be, I am violent, I must become non-violent. And the non-violent is an idea, is a concept, is not an actuality because I am violent. Do you see this actuality, this is a fact? The other is non-fact. But we have created, or we think the pursuit of non-violence will help us to become non-violent, we will be free from violence. This is rather important, go into it, I will go into it slowly. I am violent, human beings are violent. I am violent, let's understand the content of that word. What does violence mean? There is physical violence, you with a gun shoot me, or you hit me, or you throw a bomb at me, you slap me, you injure me - that's a physical violence. What is psychological violence? The inward anger, hatred, wanting to dominate people. Right? Not only physical domination but the domination of ideas - I know, you don't know, I will tell you and you will obey. That's domination. I wonder if you follow all this. The gurus are violent because they are dominating people with their ideas, with their system of meditation and all that business. Please understand this, we are not attacking the gurus, they can jump in the lake or swim, whatever they want, but I am just pointing out what violence is, the psychological dependence, imitation, conformity, domination, all that is inward violence. That's a fact. Can we deal with the fact and not with the idea of the opposite, only deal with facts, and there is no opposite. Right? There is an opposite as darkness and light, woman and man, tall and short, black and white and so on, there is a difference, but inwardly is there duality at all? Do you understand, are we following each other, or am I talking to myself?

We are trying to understand why human beings live in conflict, and whether it is at all possible to be totally free of conflict, then the brain works astonishingly, then there is great energy, vitality, passion. But a mind that is constantly in conflict, not only wears down physically but also the brain becomes weak, worn out, old age and so on. So we are concerned this evening to understand why human beings live in conflict, not only with each other - the Arab and the Jew, the Muslim and the Hindu, and all that - but also in our relationship with each other. And actually we are asking, is there a duality, or only 'what is'? You understand my question? There is only 'what is', that is, I am violent. Now is it possible to be free of violence, not to become non-violent? Is this clear, are we meeting each other? Are we meeting each other? May I go on?

Q: We are not clear.

K: You see, here, this country has propagated this idea of non-violence. Being violent they are propagating something which they are not, and if you ask them, 'I am practising non-violence' - you understand, practising. That means I am gradually, day by day, practising to become that, not to understand violence but to become something which I have called non-violence. See the difference? And hence there is conflict. Right? When I am observing, learning, enquiring into the fact there is no conflict, but if my mind is all the time saying, I must achieve non-violence, then there is conflict. But if I say, look, I am violent, what is the root of violence, what is the nature of violence, I don't condemn it, I observe it.

Now, wait a minute, here it is very important to understand what we mean by observing. Now when you observe the full moon, do you observe it, do you see the beauty of that light, you see the grandeur, the extraordinary quality of that light, or do you say, 'Yes, it's a full moon' and you do something else? So what do we mean by observing? Do you ever observe the mountain, with all that grandeur, majesty, the snow-cap, and the deep valleys full of dark shadows, the extraordinary majesty of mountains. When you observe for a single moment all your problems have gone because the majesty of that has driven away all your problems, for a second. Have you noticed this? But the old problems come back immediately.

So we are going to talk over together, what does it mean to observe. Now suppose I am violent, how do I observe that violence, because I want to understand the nature of that violence, I want to explore, discover, the extraordinary factors that contribute to violence, so how do I observe it. First, is violence - please listen to this - is violence different from me? Right? You understand my question? I am asking, is that violence, which I see when I say, I am violence, is that violence difference from me, or I am that violence. When you are angry, you are angry, it is not you are different from anger. You are different from anger only when you want to control it, only when you say, I must suppress it. But are you actually different, separate, from violence? Please you must go into this very carefully because most people say, I am different from that object which I call violence. Is that so? Is the word 'violence' separated? You understand? Through tradition, through constant talking about violence and so on, the word itself has created a separation from observation. I wonder if you are following all this. Are your brains working actively, as the speaker is? I'll go on if you are interested, it's up to you to find out.

So the observer says, I am different from that, I am different from violence. So we have to enquire who is the observer. Right? The observer is the past who has known what violence is. It is the past, it is the knowledge, is the experience, is all the stored-up memories; those memories, those various forms of knowledge, and the movement of all that is the past. Thought has divided itself as the past, the present and the future. Right? So thought has divided itself as the observer and the observed. Right? Thought has said, I am not violent, but violence is not part of me. But when you look at it very closely, you are violent, you are angry, you are greedy, envious, competitive, depressed, you are all that. Right? You are not the watcher, the observer is not different from that which he is observing. Please understand, this is very important because this will, if you really truly understand this with your heart, with your mind, with all your being, conflict comes to an end because there is no duality at all. Forget all your books, Vedanta and all the rest of it, the fact is there is no opposite except physically. Psychologically, inwardly there is only the fact. The fact is, one is violent, angry, jealous, hatred and so on.

Now to observe the fact without its opposite which thought has invented. Right, do you see this? To observe 'what is'. In that observation the observer is the observed, the thinker is the thought. Right? The experiencer is the experience. But we have separated it. We are saying, I must experience enlightenment, or I must experience - whatever you want to experience. So the thinker is the thought, there is no thinker without thought. The observer is the observed, the analyser is that which he is analysing. I'll put it in ten different ways, but that is the fact, the observer is the observed, therefore you eliminate altogether the sense of duality inwardly. Then there is no question of suppressing it, escaping from it, analysing it, it is there. Then what takes place? Do you understand? Are we together, at least a little bit, half of the way? What takes place when there is the actual realization of this truth, that there is only the fact, not the invented opposite, only that which is? In that there is no division as the observer and the observed, then what takes place? You understand? Have you ever done this, or is it just all theories to you? You understand my question? Man has lived in conflict from time immemorial; if you see those caves in France, in certain parts of the world, there is always the battle between the good and the bad, the good against the evil. Right? This has been the history of man, conflict. And we are asking if this conflict in man can end, then he is a human being, vital, creative, you understand, he is something extraordinary.

And when there is this realization that you are violent, not you separate and violence is separate, you are that. You are brown, you have certain characteristics, you have troubles, you are a professor, scientists, all that you are, all that is not separate from you. So what takes place when this fact, this truth is realized? Not intellectually, not verbally, but deep down as a fact, as truth, what takes place? Have you not eliminated altogether the opposite, there is only this. And - please follow this - and to live with that, like a precious jewel that you have discovered and you are watching it. See the beauty of that jewel, the light, the facets, the many aspects of it, as you are watching it, which is part of yourself. Therefore the watching, observing is extraordinarily important. So that there is no division whatsoever between the watcher and that which is watched. Then you realize nothing can be done about it. You are brown, you can't change it; you have dark hair, you can't change it - of course you can change it by various colours and so on. But the fact when there is such observation it is not the word, it's not the memory, it is something totally new, you are facing this new reaction which you have called violence anew. That is, have you ever observed anything anew? Have you seen the moon, the new moon that is coming up, as though for the first time in your life? Have you looked at your wife, or your husband, as though for the first time? Have you? Or, she is my wife, he is my husband, you know, just a mechanical observation. So to observe requires great enquiry, energy, vitality to see actually 'what is'.

So we are now concerned with the elimination altogether of all kinds of conflict. That is, why do we have opinions? You understand my question? You have opinions, haven't you, judgements, why? Political opinions, religious opinions. Please enquire, don't just listen to what the speaker is saying, enquire into this. Why do you carry opinions, it is a burden? I am a Brahmin, you are not, I am a Sikh, you are not, I am a Muslim - you follow. Why these opinions? It indicates a mind that is, or a brain which is so crowded with opinions it is becoming small, petty, narrow. It is not free to enquire, look.

So we must go into this question why human minds, the human brain is always occupied, never free, never quiet. You are practising quietness, that's your meditation. It's like a pianist practising the wrong note. You understand this? So enquire into all this, please, because we are reaching a crisis, or we have a crisis in the world, a tremendous crisis, and also crisis in our consciousness, in us.

And we also ought to talk over together, as we talked yesterday, that life is a process of relationship. Why in our relationship with each other, however intimate, sexual, however close, why there is conflict, why two people cannot live peacefully. Have you ever asked that question? Why? Because it is very important, if I don't know how to live peacefully with my wife, with my husband, with my girl friend, whatever you like, I cannot live peacefully in the world. I may talk about peace, I may write a great deal about peace, go all over the world talking about peace, but I am quarrelling with my wife, or with my husband. So there is conflict in our relationship, why? Please enquire. Do you want me to tell you, or are you enquiring with the speaker? See the difference. You are waiting - actually the truth - you are waiting for me to tell you. But if you are really enquiring it is a sharing, a moving together. So we are thinking together, that's so important. Not agreeing together, but thinking, step by step, going together, like walking hand in hand down a lane, where there is so much beauty, love and affection. Why is there this dissension, this division between man and man, and woman and man, in our relationship? Have you noticed? They are like two parallel lines never meeting; you may sleep with your wife or your husband - or is that not mentioned publicly? Would you kindly tell me, is it not mentioned publicly? In this country it is kind of hidden, secret, keep it closed, don't talk about it, everybody shies away from it, not from the act, but talking, looking. We are such hypocrites. We never say what we mean and stick to what you mean.

So we are going to find out together why in human relationship we have such desperate, lonely, ugly conflicts. I am not married, suppose I am married - I have my ambition, my desires, my problems, in my office I am competitive, aggressive, I am pursuing my own direction, and the wife also is pursuing her own. Right? Ambitious, or not ambitious, too docile and I dominate and she resists, you know the whole game. So we are asking, why is there this conflict because we two have to live together, we have sex, we have children, but we two are separate. Right? This is a fact, isn't it. I dominate or she dominates me, she bullies me or I bully her, I scold her or she scolds me, I don't beat her but I am angry with her - I'd like to beat her but I am a little more controlled. No, sir, you laugh, these are all facts. But I am an individual, she is an individual, each must have his own way, sexually, in habits, in our desires - how can two people live together like that? Which means you have no love at all, for your wife or your husband. Do you know what it means to love another? Have you ever loved anybody? Is love dependence? Is love desire? Is love pleasure? I don't love my wife, she doesn't love me, we are two separate individuals, we may meet sexually but otherwise we carry on our own particular way. You understand, sir? Does love exist in this country? Don't say, does it exist in Europe. When the speaker is in Europe he talks about it, but we are talking about it here as we are in this country, in this part of the world. Is there love in this country? Do you love anybody? Can love exist with fear? When each one is becoming something - I am becoming a saint and she is not, or she is becoming a saint, I am not. When each one is becoming something - you understand? Please understand all this. It's your life. And when each one is becoming something how can there be love?

So what will you do? You understand my question? I have talked about it, what will you do? Get up and go home and forget all about it, or will you enquire if it is possible to love another without wanting a single thing from another, neither emotionally, physically, in any way, not ask my wife for anything psychologically - she may cook my meal, I may bring money, I am not talking about that, but inwardly. Love cannot exist where there is attachment. If you are attached to your guru there is no love in your heart. So this is very, very serious. Without love there is no right action. When there is love, whatever you do is right action. We talk about action, we do social work, but when there is love in your heart, in your eyes, in your blood, in your face, you are a different human being. Whatever you do then has beauty, has grace, is right action.

All this may be excellent words that you hear, but will you have this quality? It cannot be cultivated, it cannot be practised, it cannot be bought from your guru, from anybody, but without that you are dead human beings. So what will you do? Sir, please, do ask this question, find out for yourself, why this flame doesn't exist in you. Why you have become such paupers. You see unless we put our house in order - our house which is ourselves - there will be no order in the world. You may meditate for the rest of your life, without that your meditation has no meaning. So please most respectfully we are asking, what will you do after hearing all this, what's your response?

Q: I want to ask something.

K: Yes sir?

Q: (Inaudible)

K: You didn't listen sir, forgive me for pointing out. You haven't listened to what the speaker has said previously. That thought is not yours or mine.

Q: I realize that it is not mine, it is not his, it is thought. So he does what he thinks.

K: No, sir. If you and I realize that thought is shared by all humanity, then there is no different thoughts, there is no you agreeing, I disagreeing. We'll go into it another time.

Q: Wouldn't that be love?

K: No, sir.

Q: You have been talking about radical change for the last fifty years, and I wonder sometimes, obviously there is no radical change in the world.

K: All right. Then why do you talk, is that it?

Q: Quite, precisely.

K: The gentleman asks - are you all interested suddenly in this? You have all become very active suddenly! The gentleman asks - this will be the last question, please - the gentleman asks, you have talked probably over fifty years, you have talked about fundamental change of human consciousness and so on and so on, for the last fifty years and more, and there is no change at all. Then the question is, why do you talk. I am not - the speaker is not talking for his amusement, for his fulfilment, for his encouragement, or if he didn't talk he wouldn't be depressed, he wouldn't feel lacking something. The speaker has tried not to talk for a year, therefore why do I talk. You understand? Have you ever asked why the lotus blooms, have you ever asked it? Have you, sir? Now just a minute, have you?

Q: You look very self-satisfied.

K: Don't let this become an argument, please. Have you ever asked a flower why it grows, why it has so much beauty, why it has such marvellous colour, the depth and the smell and the glory of a simple flower? Or the speaker may be talking out of compassion - may be. But he is not talking for his self-fulfilment.

New Delhi
3rd Public Talk
6th November, 1982
Factors of Disorder

If one may point out, we are probing together, questioning, doubting, asking, and this is not a lecture. We are together enquiring, taking a walk together into the whole field of existence, not dealing with a particular problem, but the problem of man, the problem of human beings. One of the factors in our existence is that we live in disorder. Apparently, after thirty, forty thousand years or more, we have not been able to live in total order in the universe; not relative order, but to have order within, under all circumstances, wherever we live - socially, politically, and so on. What is important is that we, you and I the speaker, should unfold the causes of disorder, not merely listen to the explanation or the description which the speaker might offer, but together think, observe, go into ourselves, not in any way selfishly or self-centredly, but look at our lives, look at what we have made of the world; why man, the human being, lives in perpetual disorder outwardly and inwardly. To enquire if it is possible to live in order inwardly first, then outwardly, not the other way round. But first, inwardly, deep within ourselves one can live in complete order. Also, we should be able to discuss, talk over together this evening, the problem of suffering and this enormous mystery of death.

Beauty is complete order. But most of us have not that sense of beauty in our lives. We may be great artists, great painters, expert in various things, but in our own daily life, with all the anxieties and miseries, we live, unfortunately, a very disordered life. It is a fact. You may be a great scientist, you may be a very great expert in a subject, but you have your own problems, struggles, pain, anxieties and the rest of it. We are asking together, is it possible to live in complete order within, not impose discipline, control, but to enquire into the nature of this disorder, what are the causes, and to dispel, move away, wash away the cause? Then there is a living order in the universe.

Order is not following a particular pattern of life, or following certain systems blindly or openly, but to enquire into ourselves and discover for ourselves; not to be told, not to be guided, but to unfold in ourselves the real causes of this disorder. So, what are the causes of this chaos, not only in the world outside of us, but also of our own inward psychological confusion which has produced disorder outwardly?

Would you consider desire as one of the factors of disorder? What is desire? For most of us desire is a potent factor: desire drives us, desire brings about a sense of happiness or disaster. Desire changes with the objects of desire. Is desire one of the causes? Why is it that all religions, all so-called religious people, have suppressed desire? All over the world the monks, the sannyasis, have denied desire, though they are boiling inside. The fire of desire is burning, but they deny it by suppressing it or identifying that desire with a symbol, with a figure and surrendering that desire to the figure, to that person. But it is still desire. Most of us, when we become aware of our desires, either suppress or indulge it or come into conflict; the battle goes on. We are not advocating either to suppress it or to surrender to it or to control it. That has been done all over the world by every religious person. We are examining it very closely so that out of your own understanding of that desire, how it arises, its nature, out of that understanding, self-awareness of it, one becomes intelligent. Then that intelligence acts, not desire.

First of all, are we aware, each one of us, of the extraordinary power of desire - desire for power, desire for certain things, desire for god, desire for enlightenment, desire to follow some system? Desire has so many aspects. It is as intricate as the weaving of a great master weaver. One has to look at it very very simply and then the complexity arises. But if you start with complexity, then you are not going further. If you start simply, then you can go very far. We are looking at it - the root and the beginning of desire.

Have you ever noticed how our senses operate? Does one become aware of one's senses, not a particular sense, but the totality of the senses? - the feeling, the tasting, the hearing, the seeing - to have all these senses in operation fully? When all your senses are active, functioning, have you ever looked at a tree that way? Have you ever looked at the sea, the mountain, the hills and the valley with all your senses? If you do, then there is no centre from which you are looking. The whole of your sensory reactions are complete, not controlled, shaped, suppressed. Unless you understand this very clearly, it is a dangerous thing to say this because, for most of us, our senses are partial - we may have very good taste for clothes and a rotten taste for furniture! You know all that. Our senses are limited as we now live. Nobody, no religion, no other philosophers, have said this. All the senses have to flower and, in that flowering, perceive the beauty of the world.

So, what are the causes of desire? Let us go into it very carefully. What is desire; How does it arise? It doesn't arise by itself. It arises through sensation, through contact, through seeing something - seeing a man or a woman, seeing a dress in a window, seeing a dress or a car or the great hills. There is immediate sensation. It is natural, healthy, to have such sensation, such response. Then what takes place? I see a beautiful woman, a beautiful man, a beautiful house, a beautiful dress. I see a beautiful shirt made most delicately. I go inside and touch the material. First seeing, then contact, and from that contact, sensation, right? Then what happens? Enquire into it: You have touched the shirt, you have the sensation of its quality, its colour. Up to now there has been no desire; there has been only sensation. Then what happens? You have touched that shirt or dress. Then thought creates the image of you in that shirt, in that car, in that dress. When thought creates that image, that is the moment desire is born. That is, desire begins when thought creates the image. I see a beautiful violin - I want to have it; the beauty of that sound that violin makes - I like to possess it. I look at it, touch it, get the sense of that old structure, and I would like to have it; that is, the moment thought enters into the field of sensation and creates the image, then desire begins.

Now, the question is, whether there can be a hiatus, a gap; that is, have only sensation, and not let thought come and control sensation. That is the problem. Why does thought create the image and hold on to that sensation? Is it possible to look at the shirt, touch it - sensation - and stop, not allow thought to enter into it? Have you ever tried any of these? When thought enters into the field of sensation - and thought is also a sensation - then thought takes control of sensation, and desire begins. Is it possible to only observe, contact, sensation, and nothing else? Do you understand that? And discipline has no place in this because the moment you begin to discipline, that is another form of desire to achieve something. So one has to discover the beginning of desire and see what happens. Don't buy the shirt immediately, but see what happens. You can look at it; but we are so eager to get something, to possess a shirt, a man, a woman or some status that we have never the time, the quietness, to look at all this. So, desire is one of the factors of our disorder. We have been trained either to suppress or to change the object. But we have never looked at the moment of the flowering of desire. That is one of the causes of disorder in our life. Please bear in mind, we are not trying to control desire - that has been tried by all the so-called saints - nor are we talking of indulging desire, but we are looking at it like a flower, how it grows.

Then, is fear one of the causes of disorder? Obviously, it is - fear of failure, fear of not being able to fulfil, fear of losing, fear of not gaining. We have every kind of fear. You have fear of the guru - have you ever noticed how you crawl in front of a guru? You kind of become inhuman, you are afraid. You want something from him and so you worship him. In that worship there is fear. So, there are multiple forms of fear. We are not talking of one particular form. We are asking what is the root of fear. If we can discover the root of fear, then the whole tree is there. Do you understand that? But if I am concerned with my particular little fear of darkness, or of my husband, wife, or something or the other, my brain is not involved in the discovery of the whole root. This is clear. So, what is the root of fear? How does it arise? This is a very complex problem. Every complex problem must be approached very simply, the simpler the better. Simpler means to say, `I don't know how to deal with fear.' Then you begin to discover. If you have already come to a conclusion as to what the root of fear is, then you never discover what the root is. But you have to approach fear very simply, the trunk and the root of fear, not the branches. We are asking what is the cause or the causation of fear.

Would you say time is a factor of fear? Time - that is, I am living, I might die tomorrow, which is time, right? To go from here to your house, that requires time. There are only two kinds of time: time by the sunrise or sunset, time by the watch, time by the distance you have to cover, time that is physical. There is the other time which is psychological, inward: I am this, but I will be that; I am violent, but I am practising non-violence; I am brutal, but give me time, I will get over it; I hope I will meet my friend tomorrow. Hope implies time. Do you understand this? There is time by the watch, time as psychological becoming, climbing the ladder of becoming, that is, creating an ideal and then trying to reach that ideal: I am this but tomorrow I will be different; I have not reached the position of power, but give me time, I will get it - all that implies psychological time. Is that clear? So, one of the factors of fear is time.

We must ask what is time, not by the watch, but time that we have: `I hope I will', which is measurement. Hope implies measurement. Time is movement, isn't it? When we begin to understand that there can be an end to fear completely, inwardly; then there is a possibility of being totally free from fear. To find that out, one must begin to enquire. Desire is one of the factors of disorder. Fear is one of the factors. Fear is time. Time is a movement from one point to another point, both physically and psychologically - I need time to learn a language. It may take a month, two months, or three months. To go from here to London takes time. To drive a car I need time. We need time there. But when we use that time to become something inwardly, we have moved over from the physical fact of learning a language to the psychological field, and I say to myself: I also need time to evolve, to become less violent. Do you understand this? I need time to learn a language and also I think I need time to get over violence, to bring about peace in the world. That is a movement in measurement. That is a movement which is thought. Thought is a movement and thought has created time. That is, I want to change `what is', and to change that I need time.

So, desire, time, thought, are the factors which bring about fear. I have done something wrong two years ago, and that has caused pain, and I will not do the same thing again. Now, what is thought? The whole world is moving in the realm of thought. The technological world with all its extraordinary complexity is brought about by thought. Man has built the most extraordinary, complicated machines like the computer, the jet, and so on. It is also put together by thought. All the great cathedrals are put together by thought; all the temples and all the things that are in the temples and cathedrals are put together by thought. The rituals are invented by thought. The guru is invented by thought. When you say `I am a Sikh', it is thought conditioning itself as a Sikh and operating. So thought has become the most important factor in our life. In our relationship, thought dominates. Thought has created the problems of war, and thought then says, `I must have peace also', which is a contradiction. Do you understand? Why has thought become so extraordinarily important in the world?
What is thought, what is the origin and the beginning of thought, and why does man depend on thought? All the great intellectuals, the great scientists, great philosophers, all the books that have been written, are all the result of thought, are based on thought. What is thought, by which we live? Is there a thought without knowledge? What is knowledge? There are several kinds of knowledge, but we will take two: knowledge you acquire by going to a school, college, a university, or by becoming an apprentice and gradually accumulating skill. If you want to be a carpenter, you must learn the grains of wood, what kind of wood to use, what instruments to use, and so on. If you want to be a scientist, you must have tremendous knowledge. Knowledge is born of experience. One scientist discovers something; another scientist adds to it or detracts from it. So, there is a gradual accumulation of knowledge. Now, is knowledge complete, or is knowledge always limited? Can the human thought which is born of knowledge, can that knowledge, be totally complete about anything? Knowledge is always limited. The Gita, the Upanishads, the Bible, they are all knowledge. And knowledge, whether it is given by a saint, by a politician, by a philosopher, is limited. So don't worship knowledge. If it is limited, as it is, then knowledge always lives with ignorance. So, thought is born out of knowledge. Do you understand this - the complexity of thought, the delicacy of thought, the extraordinary capacity of thought? In one direction, in the technological direction, it has invented the marvellous machinery, the dynamo, the piston engine, the jet, and so on, and on the other hand, thought has created wars. It has created instruments of war. We want to kill each other. If thought is the only instrument we have and that instrument is becoming blunt and creating problems, we are asking if there is another kind of instrument which is not thought.

We see disorder in our lives, at whatever level we may live. You may have the greatest power on earth, be a politician or a guru, but you live in disorder inwardly. Therefore, whatever you touch, to it you bring disorder. You see this all over the country. There are many factors of disorder, and desire is one factor. We went into it - desire, time and thought. If you exercise thought to create order, you are still creating disorder. Do you understand? Our whole life is based on discipline. We have disciplined ourselves to do this and not to do that. The word `discipline' is, the root of it is, `to learn; not from somebody, but to learn from oneself, one's own reactions, one's own observation, and one's own activities and behaviour. But discipline never brings about intelligence. What brings about intelligence is observation, and being free from fear, and understanding the nature of desire. For example, if you understand desire, see the nature, structure, its vitality, and find out for yourself the sensation and when thought enters it, when you become aware of that, you are beginning to have intelligence, which is not your intelligence or my intelligence but intelligence. So, is it possible to be free of fear which is such a tremendous burden? You have listened. Are you free from it? If you are honest, you are not. Why? Because, you have not really investigated, gone into it step by step and said, `Let me find out' with your passion, with your guts, putting your vitality into it. You have not done that. You have just listened casually, you are afraid to look at it. And so you live with it, as with some horrible disease, you live with fear, and that is causing disorder. If you see that, you are already operating from intelligence. If you understand the nature of thought, the intricacies, the subtleties, the beauty of it, from that understanding the unfolding of a flower happens. It is unfolding - the beauty of the flower.

Do you see the beauty of the flower, of the mountain, of a full moon on a leaf, the lights of silver on a piece of rock? Sir, what is beauty, not in a painting, but beauty in our life? What is the nature of sorrow, the ending of that burden, puffing away of sorrow? If you suffer pain, anxiety, ambition, and so on, you don't know what love is. You want to be ambitious, you want to have power, position, better house, better cars. Have you ever understood that a man who is ambitious has no love in his heart? And we are all very ambitious to achieve nirvana or to become a bank manager. To reach nirvana or moksha is the same thing as becoming manager of a bank because both are ambitions. To live a life of intelligence means no ambition but to be tremendously active. Sir, we have to talk over together the ending of sorrow, and what are the implications of death, and what is religion. Without religion you cannot create a new structure, a new society. What we have as religion is utter nonsense, meaningless. We have to enquire into the depth of that word. Because, only a new culture, a new civilization, can be born out of true religion, not all that paraphernalia that goes on in the name of religion. Religion is something entirely different. To have a religious life means to have compassion, love; it means the ending of sorrow, to find right relationship with each other. What most people want is not to be disturbed. They want to continue with their own particular pattern of life. So, please consider, give your energy, your capacity, to find out whether there is a different way of living on this earth.

You don't love anybody. If you love somebody, then this country would not be in chaos as it is; and there won't be wars if we love people. Your books, your rituals, your japas have no meaning whatsoever because you have lost the most precious thing in life. You probably never had it: to love without jealousy, without possession. Love is not attachment. If all of us under this tent, if we all love, then there will be a different India tomorrow. You are all so verbal, you just use words, but find out why your life is empty, shallow, why you have no love, why there is no compassion, why you are a Hindu, a Sikh, and a Muslim. You have never asked these questions, sirs. Meditation is to ask these questions. Meditation is to find out the reality of these questions and the truth that lies behind these questions.

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