Mind Without Measure
2nd Public Talk
26th December 1982
Life Is a Movement in Relationship
May we continue with what we were talking about yesterday evening. We were saying that this is not a lecture, with a view to conveying information. We are together having a conversation, you as a separate human being, if you are separate at all, with the speaker. We are walking down a lane, wooded, plenty of shadows and birds singing and we sit down together and talk about the whole problem of existence, which is very complex. And as we have been friends for a long time, we have many days to talk over these things. And we are neither convincing each other about any subject. We are not trying to persuade each other, we are not trying to overcome the other through arguments or sticking dogmatically to one's own opinion, prejudices but rather together, and I hope you are doing the same with me, together we are going to look at the world as it is and the world that is within us.
Many volumes have been written about the world outside of us: the environment, the society, politics, economics, and so on but very few - as far as I know, but one may be mistaken - but very few have gone to the very length of discovering what we actually are. Why human beings are behaving as they are doing - killing each other, constantly in trouble with each other, following some authority or another - some book, some person, some ideal, and having no right relationship with their friends, with their wives, with their husbands and with their children. Why human beings have become after so many millennia, so vulgar, so brutal, utterly lacking care, consideration, attention to others, and denying the whole process of what is considered love, if we at all have that quality.
And outwardly there are wars - man has lived with wars for thousands and thousands of years. We are trying to stop nuclear war but we will never stop wars. There has been no demonstration in the world to stop wars, but they demonstrate against a particular war. And these wars have been going on - people being exploited, oppressed and the oppressor becoming the oppressed. This is the cycle of human existence with sorrow, loneliness, a great sense of depression, the mounting anxiety, the utter lack of security, and there is no relationship with society or with one's own intimate persons - a relationship in which there is sorrow, conflict, quarrels, oppression and so on. This is the world in which we live - which I am sure you all know; or we are unaware of it, or we don't want to know. Most of us are unaware of what is actually happening. And the scientists, the biologists, the philosophers have their own separate existence apart from the rest of us.
And throughout these millennia our brains are conditioned; conditioned by knowledge. Please as we said yesterday, please don't reject or accept anything that the speaker says. Question it, doubt it, be sceptical and above all don't be influenced by the speaker because we are so easily influenced, we are so gullible. And if we are to have a conversation together and to talk seriously about these matters, one must have a mind and a brain that is free to examine, free from bias, from any conclusion, from any opinion or obstinate, from any conclusion that is definite. One must have a brain that is constantly enquiring, questioning, doubting. It is only then perhaps that we can have a relationship with each other and so communicate with each other easily. Words are meant to communicate. You may translate the meaning of the words differently but if you are speaking as we are in English, words have a definite meaning.
And together as we said yesterday, look at the activities of thought because we live by thought: all our actions are based on thought, all our contemplated efforts are based on thought - our meditations, our worships, our prayer. And thought has brought about the division of nationalities which breed wars, the division in religions as the Jew, the Arab, the Muslim, the Christian, the Hindu and the Buddhist and so on. Thought has divided the world not only geographically but also psychologically inwardly. Man is fragmented. Man is fragmented - when I use 'man', please ladies I mean you too - man is fragmented, broken up not only at the psychological, mechanical level of his existence but also in his occupation. If you are a professor, you have your own small circle and live in that. If you are a businessman, if you have multi-national business, you may travel but you are still in business, money making, or if you are a politician, you live within that area. And if you are a religious person, in the accepted sense of the word - doing various forms of puja, rituals, meditations, worshipping some idol and so on. We all live a fragmented life. Each fragment has its own energy, has its own capacity, has its own discipline, and each part plays an extraordinary role in contradicting the other part. You must know all this. And this division, both outwardly, geographically, religiously, nationally, and the division that is between oneself and another, is such a waste of energy and conflict: wasting our energy, quarrelling, dividing, each one pursuing his own thing, each one aspiring, demanding his own personal security and so on. This extraordinary energy for all action takes energy, all thinking takes energy.
This energy which is constantly being broken up is a waste of energy. When one energy contradicts another, one action contradicts another action - saying one thing and doing another, which is obviously a hypocritical acceptance of life. All such activities must invariably condition the mind, the brain. We are conditioned as a Hindu, with all the superstitions, beliefs - you know all this - what a Hindu is, what a Roman Catholic is, what a Protestant is, what a Christian is, what a Buddhist is and so also the Islamic world. We are conditioned and there is no question about it, there is no argument that we are not conditioned. We are, both religiously, politically, geographically. And as we were talking about yesterday, until there is freedom from conditioning, the activities of thought which are creating great problems and those problems thought cannot possibly solve, as we pointed out yesterday. And a new instrument is necessary to solve our human problems and we are going to talk about it as we go along. But as we said, it is not for the speaker to tell you what the new quality of that instrument is; why each one has to find for himself. That is why both of us must think together, if we can. That demands, that both of us feel, enquire, search out, question, doubt all the things that man has put together, all the things that we have created, the barriers between each other. So we, as human beings, living on this beautiful earth which is slowly being destroyed, living on this earth which is our earth, not the Indian earth or the British earth or the American earth, it is our earth, to live intelligently, happily. But apparently that is not possible because we are conditioned. This conditioning is like a computer. We are programmed. We are programmed to be Hindus, to be Muslims, to be Christians, Catholics, Protestants.
For 2000 years the Christian world has been programmed and the brain has been conditioned through that programme, like the computer. So our brains are deeply conditioned and we are asking if it is at all possible to be free of that conditioning. Unless we are totally, completely, free from that limitation, mere enquiry or asking what is the new instrument which is not thought, has no meaning. First one must begin very near to go very far. But most of us don't want to begin very near because we are all idealistic. We want to go so far without taking the first step, and perhaps the first step may be the last step. Are we understanding each other, are we communicating with each other or am I talking to myself? If I am talking to myself, I can do that in my own room. But if we are talking, having a conversation together, that conversation has significance when both of us meet at the same level, with the same intensity at the same time. That is love, that is real deep friendship.
So please, this is not a lecture in the ordinary sense of the word. We are together trying to enquire and resolve our human problems. That requires a great deal of enquiry because human problems are very, very complex. One must have the quality of patience which is not of time. We are all impatient to get on: tell me quickly something or other. But if you have patience, that is, not trying to achieve something, not to arrive at some end, some goal but step by step enquire into it. As we said, we are programmed. Our human brain is a mechanical process. Our thought is a materialistic process, and that thought has been conditioned to think as a Buddhist, as a Hindu, as a Christian and so on. And so our brain is conditioned. And whether it is possible to be free from that conditioning? Do you understand? There are those who say it is not possible; and they are not stupid people but very intelligent people. They say it is not possible because how can a brain which has been conditioned for so many centuries upon centuries, how can that conditioning be wiped away completely so that the human brain is extraordinarily pristine, original, capable of infinite capacity. Many people assert this, and are merely satisfied in modifying it, modifying the conditioning.
But we are saying that this conditioning can be examined, can be observed and there can be total freedom from that conditioning. And to discover for ourselves whether it is possible or not, we have to enquire into our relationship. Relationship is the mirror in which we see ourselves as we are. All life is a movement in relationship. There is no living thing on earth that is not related to something or other. Even the hermit that abandons the world and goes off to a lonely spot, is related to the past, is related to those who are around him. There is no escape from relationship. And in that relationship, which is the mirror in which we can see ourselves, in that relationship we can discover what we are: our reactions, our prejudices, our fears, depressions, anxieties, loneliness, sorrow, pain, grief. And we can also discover whether we love or if there is no such thing as love. So we are together, if you will, if you are serious enough to examine this question of relationship, because that is the basis of life. That is the only thing we have with each other. And if we cannot find the right relationship, if we live our own particular narrow life apart from wife, husband and so on, that isolated existence brings about its own destruction.
So relationship is the most extraordinarily important thing in life. If we don't understand that relationship, we cannot possibly create a new society. You may have physical revolutions, communists, Mao, or other forms of physical revolution, as it has been observed in Russia, where there has been great revolution - the same old cycle is being repeated with always the elite on top. You know the whole business. So relationship is important. So we are going to enquire very closely into what is relationship? Why human beings throughout the long existence of their lives have never had a relationship in which there is neither oppression, possessiveness, attachment, contradiction and so on. Why there is always this division - man, woman, we and they. We are going to examine it together. This examination can be intellectual or merely verbal which is an intellectual concept of what relationship is, trying to understand intellectually what that relationship is, but such intellectual comprehension has no value at all. It is just an idea, it is just a concept, but if you can look at our relationship as a whole, then perhaps we can see the depth and the beauty and the quality of relationship. Right sir? Can we go on?
So we are asking what actually is the present relationship with each other, not theoretical, not romantic, not idealistic which are all unreal, but the actual, daily relationship of man, woman with each other? Are we related at all? There is the biological sex - may I use that word without all of you getting excited about it, especially in this country that word is rather doubtful, we never talk about it. It is hidden, but we are going to talk about it. So please forgive me if I do. Our relationship is sexual, pleasurable. Our relationship is either possessiveness, attachment, various forms of intrusions upon each other. And if we examine one quality in that relationship, which is attachment, what is attachment? Why do we have such tremendous need for attachment? We are either attached to a person, to a belief, to some form of conclusion. What are the implications of attachment? If one is attached to a person, to one's wife, to one's family, what are they? The complication, the extraordinary nature of attachment. Why is one attached? When you are attached to anything, there is always fear of losing it. There is always a sense of uncertainty. Please observe it for yourself. There is always a sense of separation: I am attached to my wife. I am not married, but suppose I am. I am married, I am attached to her because she gives me pleasure, sexually, gives me pleasure as a companion, she gives me pleasure as a cook, you know all the rest of it without my telling you. So I am attached to her, which means I am jealous, frightened and the consequence of attachment is a continuation of fear, of losing, jealousy, anxiety. Where there is jealousy there is hatred. And is attachment love? That is one point, in our relationship.
In our relationship each one has, through the years, put together an image about each other. Those images, she and he have created about each other is the actual relationship. Right? They may sleep together, but the fact is that you and she have an image about each other, and in that relationship of images, how can there be any actual, factual relationship with another? We have, all of us from childhood, built images about ourselves and about others. And we are asking a very, very serious question: in our relationship can one live without a single image? Surely you all have an image about the speaker, haven't you? Obviously you have. Why?
You don't know the speaker; actually you don't know him. He sits on a platform, talks - but you have no relationship with him because you have an image about him. You have created an image about him, and you have your own personal images about yourself. You have got so many images; about politicians, about business men, about the guru, about this and that. You understand my question? Can one live profoundly without a single image? An image may be conclusion about one's wife, an image may be a picture, a sexual picture, an image may be some form of better relationship and so on. Why do human beings have images at all? Please, sir, ask this question of yourself: why do you have an image about the speaker? If you can answer that very honestly, go into it, perhaps you may solve the image you have built about your wife, or your husband, or your children. When you have an image about another, that image gives you a sense of security. Right sir? Please examine what the speaker is saying, because this is very important. Love is not thought. Love is not desire, love is not pleasure, love is not the movement of images, and as long as you have an image about another, there is no love. And one asks, is it possible to live a life without a single image? Then you have a relationship with each other. As it is now, it is like two parallel lines, our relationship, two parallel lines never meeting, except sexually. A man who goes off to the office and the modern lady also goes off to the office. The man is ambitious, greedy, envious, trying to achieve a position in the business world, in the religious world, the professor, and the woman goes off too to earn a livelihood. And they meet in their house to breed children. And then comes the whole problem of responsibility, problem of education, of total indifference. It does not matter what your children are, what happens to them. You want them to be like you safely married, a house, a job. Right?
And the education conditions the poor student, the poor child, as you the parents are conditioned and this process has been going on for millennia upon millennia. This is our life, our daily life and it is really a sorrowful life. So one asks why human beings live by images - all your gods are images: the Christian god, the Muslim god and your god, they are created by thought because thought is uncertain, fearful. There is no security in the things that thought has put together, and the thing it has created as an image, that you worship. Such an illusory trick thought plays upon each other.
So is it possible to be free from our conditioning in our relationship? That is, to observe in the mirror of relationship attentively, closely, persistently, what our reactions are; whether they are mechanical, habitual, traditional. And in that mirror you discover actually what you are. So relationship is extraordinarily important.
How do you observe what you are in the mirror of relationship? So we have to enquire into what it is to observe? Suppose you are married and you have a wife, and in that relationship that relationship is the mirror in which you see what you are; actually what you are, not theoretically, that you have some special consciousness, that there is something in you which is divine and all that kind of nonsense, actually what you are, then how do you observe? Do you understand? How do you observe yourself, what you are, in the mirror of relationship?
What does it mean to observe? This is really another important thing one has to find out. What does it mean to look? When you look at a tree, which is the most beautiful thing on earth, one of the most lovely things on earth, when you look at a tree, how do you look at it? Do you ever look at it? Do you ever look at the new moon, the slip of the new moon, so delicate, so fresh, so young. Have you ever looked at it? Can you look at it without using the word 'moon'? Are you following all this? Are you interested in all this? Would you kindly tell me, are you really interested in all this? I will go on like a river that goes on. You are sitting on the bank of the river looking at the river, but you don't become the river ever, because you never take part of the river, you never join the beauty of a movement that has no beginning and no end.
So please consider what it is to observe. When you observe a tree, or a moon, something outside of you, you always use the word 'tree', the 'moon', and can you look at that moon, the tree, the flower with all its colour, and can you look at it without naming it, without using the word to identify? Can you look without the word, without the content of that word, without identifying the word with the tree or the thing? Now can you look at your wife, at your husband, at your children without the word my wife, without an image? Have you ever tried it? No. When you observe without a word, without a name, without the form you have created about her or him, in that observation, there is no centre from which you observe. Are you following all this? I don't think you are. That does not matter. You have not even tried to look at your pet politician without the word, without the form, without all the associations you have got.
Can you look at the speaker, observe without your image, without the name? Then find out what happens? The word is thought. Thought is born out of memory. So you have the memory, the word, the thought, the image interfering between you and the other. Right? So there is no thought, thought in the sense of the word, the content of the word, the significance of the word to look, to observe. Then in that observation, there is no centre as 'me' looking at 'you'. Right? Then only is there a right relationship with another. In that, there is a quality of love, a quality of a certain beauty, a certain sensitivity, but if you constantly have an image about another there is no communication, there is no love, there is no depth of that word. So to look at another without the image, and the image is our conditioning. That is, we are conditioned, we are programmed. The Christian world has been programmed for 2000 years, the Muslim world for 1400 years and perhaps the Hindu world five to three thousand years. And during those periods of time, which is called evolution, our brains have been conditioned by immense knowledge, great experience. Time and space has brought about the extraordinary quality of the brain. The speaker is not a brain specialist. The speaker does not want to be a specialist of any kind, even a religious specialist. But if you can observe your own activity of thought, that is, thought to observe itself, not you observe thought. You see the difference. Because you are put together by thought: your form, your name, your qualities, your fears, your anxieties, your nationality, your peculiar tendencies and so on and so on, are put together by thought. That is your consciousness, as we were saying yesterday. Psychologists, we were told this afternoon, they don't believe in consciousness. They only see matter and the reaction to matter, sensation and adjustment; adjustment to the present existence, whether slightly neurotic, that is the result of various causes, remove those causes and you adjust yourself to the present society, to the present misery. And we are saying our conditioning is so deep, and to understand it one must understand the nature of effort.
May we go on. You are not tired? Are you sure, you are not tired? You should be, because if you are actively co-operating in this, your brain must be active, questioning, asking, looking, experimenting as you are going on, now, not tomorrow. But all that needs attention, care, watching, and so you must be tired. But I will go on.
Why do human beings throughout the world live in perpetual conflict? Please ask that question of yourself. You are in conflict. Your meditation is conflict, your worship is conflict. You have got various gods who are in conflict with each other and with you. Why human beings throughout the world live in constant struggle, pain, conflict. What is conflict? What is the cause of conflict? Where there is a cause, that cause has an end. You understand this? If I have a cause of pain, the doctor examines me and if I have cancer he examines the cause and the symptom which is the pain - then that cause may be removed or it may be terminated. So where there is a cause or a causation, there must be an ending of that causation. So if you can find out, not be instructed - the speaker is not instructing - but if you can find out for yourself what is the cause of conflict by which man has lived from time immemorial. What is the cause of it? Don't wait for the speaker to tell you. Go into yourself as we are doing now, find out what is the cause of this conflict outside and inside. Is there one cause or many causes?
If there are many causes, we can examine the many and slowly resolve each cause; or there may be only one cause. You understand my question? So are there many causes for conflict? Or is there only one cause? One of the causes may be the constant attempt to become something - the becoming. Please, this is very important to understand. The becoming - I am this, I must be that; I am greedy, and I hope I will not be greedy. That is, to become something different from what I am. I am not beautiful, but I will become beautiful; I am violent but I will become non-violent. So the becoming is a process of evolution. You understand all this? Don't look so vague sir. All becoming - whether the clerk becoming the manager, or the manager becoming the chairman is a process of time which is evolution, from the low to the high. You plant a sapling which becomes a great tree, which is the evolution of that plant, of that tree. And, please listen if you are interested, is evolution one of the causes of conflict? You understand my question? That is, I am violent - all human beings apparently, most unfortunately are violent - and I am violent and I will become non-violent. The becoming from 'what is' is a process of evolution which requires time, space. Right? You are following all this? And we are asking, is evolution, this movement from 'what is' to what 'should be', which is the movement of evolution, is that one of the causes of conflict? Right? Is time one of the factors of conflict? Is duality one of the causes of conflict? That is, there is duality - light and dark, man, woman, you know duality, the physical world, in that physical world there is duality between good cloth and bad cloth, between a nice dress, which is tasteful, good material and bad material, between a good car and a bad car. Obviously, physically, there is a difference. There is duality.
And we are asking, inwardly, psychologically, is there a duality at all? I am violent. When I try to become non-violent there is duality. And we are asking does conflict exist as long as duality? And why have we psychologically, inwardly duality? I am violent and I have thought I must not be violent, and so I invent an idea called non-violence, which in this country is fashionable. And this fashion of non-violence is spreading all over the world, which has no meaning of course. Because violence is the fact, is real. Non-violence is fiction. Right? So there is only 'what is', not 'what should be', so that if one realizes that 'what is' is reality and not 'what should be', then you can dispense with 'what should be'. Then there is no duality. You understand this? The moment there is the idea 'I must not' or 'I should', or 'I will', away from 'what is', then there must be conflict. Does one perceive this intellectually or actually that there is no psychologically, inwardly, the opposite, only 'what is'? When there is only 'what is' you deal with 'what is', not with 'what should be'. Right?
I am violent and this idea of non-violence is fictitious, is hypocritical. It has no value because in becoming non-violent I am sowing the seeds of violence all the time. So there is only violence, not, what is violence. What is the nature and the structure of violence, not only to get angry, to hit somebody, to kill somebody, not only the killing of human beings but killing animals, killing nature. Fifteen million whales have been killed by man. Do you understand all this? Violence is also imitation, conformity, trying to be something which you are not. So can one look at that violence with all the content of that word, not just physical anger or physical expression of that anger but to look at the whole content of that word and hold it, not move away from it, just hold that feeling, look at it, and not move away from it, neither suppress it, nor escape from it, nor transcend it but just look at it as you would look at a precious jewel.
And when you look at it, are you looking at it as something separate from you or, what you observe is what you are? You understand my question? Please, this is important to understand. If some of you are tired don't listen, just go to sleep. This is important to understand. We are violent. That violence we have said is different from 'me'. Therefore I try to change it to become something else. That violence is 'me'. I am not different from violence, greed is part of me, I am not different from violence, greed, or envy, hate or jealousy. Suffering is me but we have separated anger, jealousy, loneliness, sorrow as something separate from me. So I can control it, shape it, run away from it, but if that is 'me', I can do nothing about it but just observe it. I wonder if you understand it?
So the observer is the observed; the thinker is the thought, the experiencer is the experienced. The two are not separate. So where there is division there must be conflict. If I am separate from my wife, of course physically I am separate, but if I am separate psychologically from my wife there is bound to be conflict. So time, evolution, the sense of the opposite are the factors of violence. These are the many and other factors, all these factors are 'me'. So 'me' in essence is the cause of conflict. I wonder if you understand this? If one asks, how am I to be free of 'me', which is a wrong question, but to observe the whole movement of conflict, not translate it, not try to understand, just to observe, like you observe the marvellous movement of the skies, the ocean. Then it tells you all its content without your analysing.
So a brain that is in conflict mechanically, psychologically, must inevitably bring about disorder in itself and so outwardly. Conditioning, which we will go into again next week end, whether it is possible for human beings to be totally, completely free of it? When there is that freedom, there is order, there is love, compassion and that compassion is intelligence.
3rd Public Talk
1st January 1983
May I wish you all a happy New Year. I hope you will have a happy New Year.
We have been talking over together our daily problems, not theories, not speculative philosophy or some romantic, imaginative life. We have been talking over together as a conversation between two people, the very complex process of our living from the time we are born till we die. We went into several things in the last two talks, two conversations, and perhaps, it will be right to remind you if I may, that this is not a lecture as it is commonly understood, to inform and to instruct on a particular subject, but this is a conversation between two people, between you and the speaker, about the life they live, their pleasures, their fears, their sorrows, and the perpetual conflict between human beings. We talked about whether it is possible at all to live a life without a single conflict - conflict in our relationship with each other, however intimate or far away. We went into that question very carefully, whether it is possible in the modern world with all the terrible things that are happening, whether human beings in their relationship with another, to live a life without a single shadow of conflict. Conflict, we have said, brings about disorder and as long as we live each one of us in disorder, we cannot possibly bring about a radical psychological revolution in the structure of society. We went into that too.
I think this evening, we ought to talk over together the nature of time, desire, fear and whether sorrow, which man has lived with, can ever end? So we will talk over together as two friends, not as the speaker sitting on the platform, that is only for convenience, two people talking over this very complex problem of time, desire, fear, pleasure, and whether sorrow, which happens to be the lot of man throughout the world, whether it has an end to it. So please, the speaker is not directing you on what to think, or agree with what he is saying, but we are together going into this problem. Together, not you listen to the speaker or agree or disagree, but together you and the speaker investigate the nature of time, because it is very important to understand the nature of time.
And also we ought to explore desire which is very complex, and we ought to talk over together too, whether there is an end to sorrow because where there is sorrow there cannot be love, there can be no compassion, there can be no intelligence. So it is important that you and the speaker meet at the same level, at the same time, with the same intensity, otherwise there will be no possibility of communication. I hope this is clear. That to understand another, to understand with your heart, not with one's intellect, which is necessary, but to meet another like the speaker there must be a communication, not merely verbal but a communication of the mind and the heart, intelligence in the heart. The word heart is not merely a physical organ but the whole nature of that word, to have the mind, which is an extraordinary affair, in the heart. But most of us listen to words, to ideas, agree or disagree, analyse, speculate and so on, but we never meet at the same time at the same level, with the same intensity. Then there is real, deep, profound communication; then words become rather meaningless, though they have to be used and the words have definite meaning. The construction of a phrase, of a sentence must be naturally grammatical, but to meet another in communication, there must be no barrier. That means you or the speaker must have no prejudice, no bias, not committed to any philosophy to any conclusion, but meet in freedom. And to meet in freedom requires a great deal of intelligence, a great deal of enquiry.
One hopes this evening, we will meet on the same level because the speaker has no authority, he is not telling you what to do, or what you should do with your life; but when we are together, discussing, having a dialogue over a problem, that problem is the concern of both the speaker and you, or you and the speaker. It is your concern as well as that of the speaker. And to merely meet at a verbal level, as most of us do, has very little significance, because we are concerned with a psychological revolution, not physical revolution, psychological, inward radical, fundamental change. We have lived for millennia upon millennia - thousands of years with sorrow, pain, anxiety, loneliness, despair, fear and the pursuit of wandering desire, and man is always asked if there is a stop to time? And we are going to talk over together the nature of time.
What is time? Time fundamentally means division, distribution, evolution, achievement, moving from here to there - that is, this constant division as of yesterday, today and tomorrow, sun rising, sun setting, the full moon of a lovely evening and time, meeting your friend, time is hope. Time is a very, very complex affair and that requires a patient... patience is timeless. Do you understand what we are talking about? It is only impatience that has time. Are we meeting each other somewhere? So to enquire into the nature of time one must have a great deal of patience; not impatience, not say, get on with it, I understand what you are talking about, let us get on. Because we live by time. We have divided our life in a time movement. Movement is time. To go from here to there requires time. To learn a language requires time. To accumulate knowledge, to experience, to have pleasure, looking forward to something as fear or as pleasure, the memories of yesterday, of a thousand yesterdays, meeting the present, modified and moving towards the future. This is all time. Time for a clerk to become the manager, to acquire any skill - all this requires time. And the desire to experience something other than the usual experience, the pursuit of that is also time. And whether there is psychological time at all. That is, being violent, to become non-violent, that requires time. The pursuit of an ideal requires time. Time means evolution both physical as well as one imagines or one has the fallacy that one will evolve into something totally different from 'what is'. All this implies time. Time to realize, to become illumined, which the speaker is questioning.
So we must together understand, not verbally but the feeling of time, the sense of time. Time is memory - the past as the observer, the observer observing what is happening, translating what is happening to his own condition, to his own experience, and so on. So we need time, bearing in mind that time essentially means division. Division implies distribution, and you need time to learn a skill. The scientist needs a great deal of time to enquire into matter, into astrophysics. So outwardly to change, we imagine time is necessary. Eventually man who is divided, who has divided himself into nationalities, will eventually become international and gradually drop all nationalities and have a global relationship. We think all that requires time. We must evolve towards that. I hope this is being made clear. So time which is fundamentally a process of division, outwardly, physically is necessary - like the seed growing into a great tree that requires time, years. There is a tree in California which is over 5,000 thousand years old. To come to that age, many, many rains and storms and fires and lightening, which is all the growth in time.
Are we together in all this? Are we following each other, sharing with each other? If we are, we see that outwardly, physically, we need time. Time to acquire knowledge, the accumulating process of learning, mathematics, physics or how to fly one of these jets. All that requires time. One cannot possibly escape from that time or try to find a stop to that kind of time. That would be utterly meaningless and foolish. But if you could enquire into the nature of time to become something inwardly. You can become through diligent work, a clerk or a worker becoming a foreman or a manager. There all that is time. To go from here to there, for a plant to grow into a great magnificent tree, the seasons of winter, spring, summer, autumn is the division of time. Now we are together going to enquire if there is psychological time at all? Do you understand my question? The time that we think is necessary to change from one psychological or sensory responses, to another. We think time is necessary to be free of violence, time is necessary to be free of envy: I am envious but give me time to be free of that particular pain or pleasure.
So we are questioning whether there is time at all psychologically? Do you understand my question? Right sirs? Are we meeting each other? Otherwise my talking and your sitting here has no meaning. So we are not discussing or having a conversation about the necessity of physical time. To build a house you need time. To be educated, if you must be educated, needs time. But we are enquiring into something much more important, much more essential because we are conditioned to the idea or to the concept or to the illusion that time is necessary, from 'what is', to 'what should be'. We, the speaker and you, are questioning that, whether time is at all necessary for a radical change? Do you understand? Have I stated the question clearly so that we all meet it? We said time is division, time is distribution, division as 'I am', 'I should be'. That is a division and 'I should be' requires time. Right? We are questioning that. We said is there such a thing as becoming something or experiencing something? Enlightenment, of which many people talk, does that demand time? We are questioning a most fundamental thing. You understand sirs, because all our philosophy, our life, all the books that you read - the so-called sacred books are no more sacred than any other book - they have all said that time is necessary. You must go through various disciplines, various practices in order to come near whatever you like to call it - god, an experience which is beyond all measure, a state of mind that has not been touched by time.
So we must go into this question very closely whether there is psychological time at all. The moment you admit that there is psychological time, time being division, there must be conflict. Right? I have divided violence, which I am, which all human beings apparently are, and to achieve non-violence there is a division immediately taking place. You understand sirs? We are violent and we must be the opposite. Where there is the opposite, there must be division and therefore there must be conflict. And time is the enemy, is the cause of conflict. I wonder if you understand all this. Don't look so vague please. Don't be so puzzled. Look at it very simply. I am greedy, which perhaps you are not, I am greedy and to be non-greedy takes time. We said time is division. You understand that? So where time comes into being, there must be conflict, and the becoming something is endless. Do you understand that? Now we are asking, is there an end to violence in which there is no time at all. You understand my question? Come on, somebody say, yes. Don't say, yes, for the fun of it. It is a very, very serious problem. We have accepted time, division, as a means of ending conflict. We are saying quite the contrary. Where there is division as 'me' becoming something, the becoming something is noble or whatever it is, that very division is the process of time, and that division, does it exist at all? That is, I am greedy, that is the only fact I have. The other, non-greed, non-violence has no reality. It is just a concept, a structure of thought which cannot understand or end violence. It is an escaping process - the ideal. All right?
Are we together in this? I am afraid we are not. You are full of ideals, a bag full of them, and you will never under any circumstances achieve the ideals because they are still the invention of thought. As we went into the nature of thought which is limited because all knowledge is limited. We talked about it considerably. One doesn't want to make it too complex. Greed, measurement, comparison - 'I am this', 'I will be that', which is measurement, all that implies psychological time. That is the illusion in which we live. We are questioning the reality of that. There is only 'what is: there is only greed, there is only violence, there is only war. And can war end, killing each other in the name of god, in the name of ideals, in the name of countries, god and all the rest of it? Now we will go into it very carefully. I am violent. When I say 'I', I mean all humanity. You are violent. Human beings are violent. Is it not important to find out whether it can end immediately? Isn't it important? Not to say, I must become non-violent. When you become non-violent that means a period of time. During that period you are sowing the seeds of violence, which is so obvious. Like man saying I am trying to be non-violent. Do you understand all this? I will go on.
So is it possible to end violence or greed, whatever you will, anger immediately - the whole entirety of violence? So what is violence? Not merely anger, to injure another, to hate, to criticize, to wound another both physically and psychologically, to imitate, to conform, not merely physical aggression but the whole movement of violence, can that movement totally end? And to find that out one must understand time as division. I have divided, thought has divided 'what is' into 'what should be'. I am ignorant, not in the scholastic sense, I am ignorant but I will be enlightened some day. So we are now asking whether it is possible to end violence, greed, what you will, immediately, so that it never comes up again. Aren't you interested in that to find out? Are you really? If you are interested what do you give? If you buy something, you must give something. Right? You must give money, you must make a gesture, you must do something - not say, yes, I want to end it, which means, to end it you have to think, you have to work, you have to be passionate about it, not just casually saying, yes. That is why I said in the beginning, we must meet at the same level, at the same time, with the same intensity. Then we can communicate profoundly, not verbally, but with a mind in the heart, which means intelligence operating with love. How do you observe violence? Violence is a sensory response. You have hurt me, I am wounded. My image about myself has been hurt. You might not physically hurt me but you have wounded me inwardly because I have an image about myself as a great man or some professor or some idiotic person. And that image has been hurt. And to get over that hurt, give me time. I work not to be hurt, I will be aware, I will be careful, listen carefully and so on.
You see all that is effort, which is brought about by the division of time. Clear? So is it possible to end violence so completely it never comes back? That is why you are asking, how do you look, how do you perceive violence? How do you look at a tree, the moon, the stars, the heavens and the beauty of the night, how do you look at it? How do you look at your wife or your husband or your friend? Do you look at your wife, or your husband or the tree or the moon or the rivers with the memories that you have had, with the accumulated hurts, accumulated pleasures, companionship, stored in the brain as memory? Do you look at your wife, and your husband with those memories? So memory is time. Right? So where there is time, there must be division. And hence you have row after row, quarrels and all the rest of it in your relationship with another.
So it is of the highest importance to find out how to observe. How to observe a tree, which is one of the most beautiful things on earth, how do you look at it? When you use the word tree or the species of tree, you are not looking. Right? The word, the remembrance prevents you from looking. I want to look at my wife. Probably you have never looked at her. I have looked at her as my wife, my possession, my pleasure, sexually and otherwise. I have looked at her with all the memories of the last ten days or ten years or fifty years. And those memories come between her and me, and she has also her memories. So it is very important to find out whether one can look at a wife or a husband or a tree or the moon or the flowing waters of a great river without the word, without the name, which is the past. You understand all this?
So can you look at violence or greed or whatever you will without the word? The moment you use the word 'violence', you have already put it in time. Do you understand this? The moment you use the word, which we have used a thousand times before, as violence, that very word is the factor of time. Do you see this? And therefore you have already brought about a division. Now can you observe your wife, your friend or the speaker now? Can you observe him without his reputation, without any image, look at him, can you? Or the image that you have built about the poor chap is so strong that you cannot possibly see him as he is, or you see him impudently, say, 'Who are you you to tell us?' So can you look at your wife, at a tree, at a flower without the movement of thought? The movement of thought is time. Thought divides as time divides. When you look, you are looking without the observer, who is the past, who is the word, who is the memory. That past divides, the past is time. To look at yourself, as you look in the mirror to look at yourself, and that mirror, which is physical, the mirror in which you look is the mirror of relationship. There you can perceive every movement of thought, every movement of reaction. So the perceiver is the perceived, the analyser is the analysed. I want to experience something extraordinary. I am bored with all the experience I have had - sex and pleasure. I want to experience something ultra, ultra, something beyond all thought, and the experiencer has projected what he wants to experience and therefore the experiencer is the experienced.
I wonder if you understand all this? A mind that does not demand experience is totally different. Therefore we have to learn how to listen, how to observe, not accumulate how to listen, just listen, just observe with all the memory. Then you will see that which you observe, which is violence, there is no division between the observer and the observed. The observer is the violence. Right? I wonder if you see that. And when you are so alert, watch, observe, it is like putting a great light on the thing which you observe, then it disappears totally, never to return.
Now we ought to talk over what is desire? Because time and desire and thought are the major factors of fear. Time as tomorrow, what might happen to me, time as not achieving, not becoming. We went into that. And we are saying time, desire, thought, are the major factors of fear. So we ought to talk over together, have a dialogue between two friends who have known each other for some time, happily, easily without trying to convince one or the other, what is desire, the wandering nature of desire, desire which is never content, the desire that all religions have said, suppress it? We are going to examine together the nature of that desire. Why have religious leaders, who are really phony leaders, why have religious leaders all over the world and all the books and all the rest of it, why have they said we must suppress or desire for god? That is all right to desire for god, for illumination, that is perfectly all right; but to desire a woman, desire a house, desire the lovely things of the earth, the beauty of a painting, the beauty of a statue, a poem of Keats, there you must not desire. It will lead you astray, it will lead you to temptation, and we have learnt through the ages the art of suppressing desire or yielding to desire. So we are together, if you are not tired, we will go into this question of desire.
What is desire? Not the object it desires or the object creating the desire. You understand? The object creating the desire or the desire exists and the object varies. You understand? You must be clear on this point. Gosh, there is so much to talk about in all this, aren't you tired? You see a nice car, a nice shirt, a lovely house, a beautiful painting. That painting, house, the car, the woman, the man - does the object create the desire or the desire exists and the objects don't matter? If the object creates desire then it is a totally different investigation. But if desire exists and the wandering nature of desire from one thing to another. So we have to examine together what is desire? What is the origin, the beginning of desire, not how to control desire, not suppress it, transcend and all that kind of stuff, but the beginning. If one can understand the origin, the source of desire, then we can deal with it. But if we don't ask the origin, the beginning then we are merely trimming the branches of desire. Is this clear? So together we are going to examine what is desire?
We live by sensation. Our sensory responses, their reaction is the activity of sensation. Right? I see you, well dressed, clean, healthy, beautiful or whatever you are. I see it. The seeing is the beginning of sensory responses. You are following this obviously. It is not complicated. So the seeing, observing, contact and sensation, which are the responses of the senses. Right? Is this clear? Then what happens? You understand? I see a beautiful house, a lovely chalet in the mountains, beautifully built, strong: see it, contact, actually touch it and from there sensation. Then what happens? This is really important to understand. I see you, a beautiful woman. I am not tempted so don't bother. I see a beautiful woman or a beautiful man, if you are a woman. The very seeing of that beauty - nice, clear, intelligent face, is a sensation, isn't it? Then what is the next step that takes place? Think quickly for god's sake, move. I'll show you. You see I have to tell you, which is a pity. That is why - please - you become second hand human beings. But if you saw it for yourself you are completely out of that mediocrity. You see a beautiful something, a statue which has been created by love and skill and matter. Then as you see it, sensations arise, you touch it, then what happens? Please listen, find out for yourself. Please listen, sir. Then thought comes in and says, how beautiful, I wish I had that statue in my room, I wish I was in that car, I wish I had that house. Right? At that moment when thought takes charge of sensation, at that precise moment, desire is born. Do you understand this, sirs?
We will go into this a little more. Sensation which is normal, healthy, vital, otherwise you are dead. To suppress sensation means you are dead and probably that is what happened here in this country. You read the Gita and the Upanishads and all the sacred books and you follow guru after guru, discipline your desires, control, suppress, escape and so on. Whereas we are saying something entirely different, if you can follow this a little bit. Sensation, then immediate association of thought with the object. Right? That is, sensation, seeing the car, thought then says, how nice it would be if I sat in there, it is a beautiful car and has tremendous power behind it - not the Indian cars - and beautifully made, then begins desire. Right? You understand this? Now is it possible for thought not to intervene? You understand my question? Not immediately thought saying, it will see itself in the car. Is there a hiatus, an interval between sensation and thought not immediately taking charge? You understand this? So that there is an interval, a gap. If there is a gap, what happens? That requires extraordinary skill and attention. Right sirs? To see where sensations are important, because if your senses are not alive you cannot see the beauty of the earth, the movement of the sea. So sensations, the sensory responses are essential for life, but when thought controls, shapes, gives identity to sensation, then at that precise movement desire is born. Can we find out, without control, without suppression, just to see how thought is acting upon sensation, just to see it, even verbally, even intellectually, but to go into it very deeply, to have such alertness, such care, such attention, such love to see the nature - how desire is born. Then you have to see what thought is, how thought makes all life a problem, which we went into the other day.
And also thought is a movement, material movement. Right? Perhaps you have not enquired or gone into this - not gone into it in the sense, read about it, by professionals who have written books about it, but you can watch yourself, which is far more exciting, far more real, then you are dealing with something actual. Thought, as we said, is limited because all knowledge, all experience is limited, and thought springs from knowledge, experience, memory, thought. And this whole process is limited. There is no complete knowledge about anything, can never be: science, technology is always adding more and more. So time, desire, thought, are the factors of fear. I am afraid what might happen to me because I have had an accident a couple of days ago or a year ago and I am afraid it might happen again. I am watchful. There is fear. I am afraid of the dark. I am afraid of the wife, the husband, I am afraid of my boss. Aren't you all afraid? Aren't you? Don't be ashamed, it is the common lot of man. You may not want to acknowledge it, you may not want to face it, but you are frightened and fear does terrible things to human beings: mentally, psychologically, it narrows down, it curtails, it makes human beings so bound to authority, to some ideas. They have become so dependent, so attached, so inhuman. So we are not talking about the many expressions of desire, of fear, but fear itself. Not afraid of your wife, or husband, afraid of losing a job, afraid of past pains, hoping that they will never occur again. We are not talking about the various aspects of fear, but the root of it.
What is the root of fear? Isn't it time and thought? That is, I am a clerk, I may never become a manager. I am a disciple, I can never become the guru, if I want to be. I am ignorant in the deep sense of the word, not ignorance of the book. Deep ignorance which is not knowing myself wholly. That is ignorance - a movement, that is 'me' that has no beginning, perhaps no end. And to understand that deep ignorance I not only need time, I imagine I need time and also I need experience, accumulation, reincarnation and all the rest of it. So there is fear. So we are asking each other what is the root of it all? Why has man, throughout the ages, past, timeless, beginning, why has he carried this burden of fear? He hasn't been able to resolve it. He may go to all the temples, to all the churches, to all the gurus, various try various systems of meditation but fear is always there. You may be blind to it, you may want to evade it but it is always there, in one form or another. So we are asking what is the root of it. The root of it is time and thought. Of course. Is that clear? Must I go into it? I had pain a couple of weeks ago and I fear it might return again, which is time. Right? You understand, it is time, isn't it? It is the remembrance of that pain and it might happen again. And the fear is hoping it would not happen again. My wife - I am not married - my wife has hurt me, as I have hurt her, not physically, inwardly, and I hope she won't hurt me more by word or gesture or by a tear. I am afraid she might hurt me, fear. So fear is time and thought. If one understands the nature of time and thought and the movement and the wandering of desire - understand in the sense, see the truth of it instantly, as we went into time, we went into desire, see the actual truth of it, not the verbal conclusion of it, the fact of it, the reality of it, the depth of it, the intensity of it - if you do see it so clearly then you will never ask, how is fear to end, nor ask, can I control thought, or say, how am I to stop thought - which are the causes of fear. You will never ask that question, because you can't ask a question about what you actually see, the truth. It is there.
It is there for you to see, not to accept, to argue about, analyse, discuss, take sides, you can't. It is like seeing the most beautiful thing on earth, which is there. An excellency, an excellent mind which is there. A heart that is always aflame, which is there. If you see it, then fear ends. And where there is the ending of fear, there is no god. You understand? It is out of our fear, out of our desire, we invent the gods. When a man in whom there is no fear, completely no fear, then he is a totally different human being and he needs no god. Sirs and ladies give your heart to consider all this. Not your mind, not your intellect. Intellect has its place, but when you are examining something very, very seriously, the heart must enter into its consideration. When the heart enters, that is when there is love to observe, love of watching, seeing, then when you see the truth of desire, time and thought, then there is no fear whatsoever. Then only, there can be love. Fear and love cannot go together. Fear and pleasure go together but not love and fear.
4th Public Talk
2nd January 1983
Meditation Is the Expression of Daily Activity
This is the last talk. Yesterday evening we talked about fear, the nature of fear and what brings about fear. We said, time, desire, thought are the contributory causes of fear. And man has lived with fear. We live with fear now: feature of the future, the past, fear of the future of man, what is going to happen to man. Surely the future of man is what he is now. It is so obvious. If he does not radically change, not society, not the various forms of governments, but if he does not radically change psychologically, inwardly, the future is what he is now. That is guaranteed because there will be more wars, more instruments of war, more destruction, more violence, more fragmentation of human beings into nationalities and so on. The future is what we are now. And we said during all these talks, that it is so urgently necessary to bring about this psychological revolution, to bring about a change, not move from one form, one system, one idea to another but whether it is possible for human beings who have lived on this lovely earth for so many millennia, whether it is possible for them to change.
And this evening I think we ought to talk over together whether sorrow can ever end, the sorrow of man. And what is love, what is compassion, and what is intelligence? We ought to talk over together also the significance of death. And if we have time, we ought to talk over the whole question of meditation.
We have lived with sorrow generation upon generation: the grief, the sorrow of loneliness, the sorrow of great anxiety, the sorrow of having no proper relationship with another, the sorrow of a mother, a father losing a son, a wife whose husband has been killed in war, decorated as a hero with lots of medals on his chest. And also there is the sorrow of ignorance. Sorrow has many forms. It isn't just one incident called death, it isn't just one happening in one's life, but a series of incidents, a series of accidents and experiences which both contain both pleasure and pain, the sorrow of this movement of reward and punishment, the sorrow of old age, the sorrow of illness, blindness and deformed children. Man has carried a great weight of sorrow and we try to escape from it. We invent all kinds of theories, all kinds of possibilities, romantic concepts, flowering in ideations. But sorrow remains with man. I wonder if one has looked at what wars have done to man. How many women, fathers, brothers, sisters have shed tears because one holds on to nationalism, racial prejudices, linguistic differences. All this is causing enormous sorrow in the world. There is not only personal sorrow, the loss of something, the loss of someone whom you loved - if you love at all - the loss of never having a single, happy, original day, the pain of seeing poverty in this land and people doing nothing about it. So man has carried this sorrow from time beyond measure. And we are still burdened, fearful, anxious, lonely, aching with deep inward pain, the lack of success, lack of opportunity, lack of the things we all want.
So we ought together this evening consider whether it is possible to end this enormous burden carried by humanity and by those who are still in sorrow. What is sorrow? As we said yesterday, what is the cause of sorrow? Where there is a cause, there is an end. If I have cancer, the cause, the pain, then perhaps the cause can be removed. So where there is a cause for anything, there is an end to that. A causation is a movement, it is not a fixed point. And if you can understand and discover the cause of this burden of sorrow, then perhaps we shall understand the nature of love; not love of god, not the love of the guru, not the love of some book or a poem but the love of human beings, the love of your wife, husband, your children. To find that extraordinary perfume that is really the light of the world, one must understand the nature of suffering, the structure of suffering.
I hope we are together, you and the speaker, going into this. Please, together we are investigating, not the speaker investigates and you listen, agree or disagree, accept or deny, but together to explore a very, very profound problem of humanity. One requires an unemotional approach to it, not sentiment, not a conclusion that sorrow will end, or that sorrow will always remain with mankind. We must together, if you will, consider this question deeply. You can only consider this question when the mind is in the heart. We use our intellect to comprehend, to discern, to argue. We use the intellect to choose, to measure. And so intellect is one of the faculties of the brain. And if we are going to examine this extraordinary, profound problem, mere intellect has very little place, and most of us are highly intellectual, highly educated, have extraordinary - especially in India - extraordinary qualities of analysis. You can analyse anything on earth. You have fairly subtle minds, not all naturally. And to comprehend sorrow, mere intellect cannot go very far. You understand sirs, what we are saying; that all of us have the capacity to use our intellect, which is to understand, to discern, to argue, to choose, to weigh one against the other. This is the function of the intellect. And most of us have that capacity. And if you are merely approaching this question of sorrow, then your mind, your intellect dominates the process of investigation, therefore it distorts. Whereas is it possible to approach it with a holistic movement? Do you understand?
We never approach anything as a whole. We never look at life as a whole. We have fragmented life, broken up as the intellect, the emotions, love and so on, broken it up, and so we can never look at a problem wholly. The word 'whole' means not only complete, not only the feeling that parts are included in it, but the parts don't make the whole. 'Whole' also means healthy - a healthy mind, not a crippled mind, not a stagnant mind - a mind which is whole, a sense of covering the earth and the skies and the beauty of all that. 'Whole' means also 'holy'. So we never approach with that quality of mind. And in investigating, exploring this question, one needs to have that quality of a mind in the heart, which is not romantic, idealistic, imaginative, but a very factual mind, tempered with the quality of love. When we use the word 'heart' we mean by that - mind in the heart, mind in the quality of love, which has nothing whatsoever to do with any ideas, with any ideals, with any obedience. There is no guru. There must be freedom to observe.
So together, let us look at this question. Together. What is sorrow, and why has man put up with sorrow, why has he accepted it as he has accepted fear, as he has accepted pleasure, desire, all the things that man is surrounded with, both outwardly and inwardly. We are not talking over together, not having a dialogue about the various types of sorrow. I might have lost my son and you might have lost your bank account, suddenly discover that all your belief in god has no meaning, all the temples contain nothing but words and stones and are probably dirty. So you have to have a very clear, direct, uncluttered observation of this. Are we together in this? If we are, which I am rather sceptical about, I hope you don't mind, if we are, then what is sorrow? What is the nature of it? In that thing called sorrow there is pain, there is grief, there is a sense of isolation, a sense of loneliness in which there is no relationship. It is not only a physical shock but it is a great crisis in the consciousness, in the psyche. I have lost my son. I am only taking that as an example. I have lost my son to whom I am attached. I wanted him to grow up into some beastly business man, to have some kind of good substantial income, a house and so on. In him I have emulated myself - you understand this word, you are following what I am saying - and suddenly he has gone. What is that quality of suddenness? The sudden ending of something which has given me great joy, great pain, great anxiety, concern about his future. And all that movement: my affection, my concern, my care, my sense of helping him to have good taste, to live aesthetically because where there is deep aesthetic sensitivity, that is the highest moral, highest ethics, and suddenly he is gone. Don't you know all these feelings? I hope not your son, or your wife or your mother or father but in every house there is this shadow of sorrow. There is a sudden ending, a sudden ending of my attachment, a sudden ending of all my hopes, which I have invested in him, a sudden sense of not only deep shock, life becomes empty, either one becomes very cynical or finds a rational explanation or plunges oneself into some form of entertainment, drugs, drinks and all the rest of it, or believe in some future life. This is the lot of all human beings.
So what is this ending? Are we together in this a little bit? What does it mean to end? Have we ever ended something without a motive, without a reward or punishment - to end? Because where there is an ending there is a totally new beginning. But we never end. We end things if it is profitable or painful. Our life is based on reward and punishment, both outwardly and much more inwardly, but we never end something without a cause.
So grief, loneliness and a sense of separation, which is essentially time, which we went into yesterday: time, identification, investment and all the things one has cultivated in another, all that ends and there is a shock, and that shock I call sorrow. Now can one remain with that, not escape, not seek comfort, because that is the most silly thing to do, not go off to a temple or run after some guru, but to remain with that tremendous challenge without a single movement of thought? Because sorrow is perhaps one of the greatest challenges, greatest demand on the human mind, on the human quality, and if you merely escape from it, run away, rationalize, then that which has a tremendous depth to it. Then sorrow is your shadow but with the ending of that, there is passion, not lust but the passion that is the very essence of energy. But very few of us have that passion, very few of us have that passion which is living, not occasionally, but that passion which moves the universe.
So we ought to look into what is love. That word has been so spoilt. Romantic woman calls it the love of god, the love of my guru, the love of my painting, the love of my book. You understand? We have given to that word such a shallow meaning. One may say, I love my wife. One questions that love. That love may be attachment, that love may be seeking comfort, pleasure sexually, pleasure of companionship and so on. So we are going to consider what is love. Because in trying to see the depth of it, the beauty and the extraordinary quality of it, love may be related to death. So we are going together to look at it. Please, this is not a lecture in view of instruction, but together as two human beings facing a world which is becoming so dangerous, one must ask this question.
Surely to find something true, one must negate that which is not true, negate the false. You may then say, to each person the false is different. To each person that which is illusory, that is, which is not objective, rational, sane. So to discover what is false and what is true, and what is true in the false, one requires not the capacity to think clearly only, but the demand, asking, questioning. So what is love? Would you say, love is desire? Would you say, love is pleasure? Don't shake your heads. It is meaningless. Would you say, love is attachment? Please, the speaker is asking these questions for you to answer to yourselves, answer not to deceive yourselves, it is so easy to deceive oneself. One may think one is a marvellous human being, you are out of all this. But to find out that which is not love, that negation is the most positive action.
We are asking is desire love? Is it? We went into the question of desire yesterday. We won't go into it again now, if you don't mind. Is desire love? Desire is a wandering movement, and is love wandering, unstable, weak, or is it something as strong, as vital as death? Is love pleasure: sexual pleasure, the pleasure of owning, dominating, possessing a person? Is that love? Is attachment to the person - my wife, my husband, my family, attached which means to hold on, cling to. Is that love? Or in attachment there is fear, jealousy, anxiety, hate. Where there is jealousy, there is hate. Is that love? Has hate any relationship with love? Is love the opposite of hate? Is the good the opposite of that which is not good? Ask these questions sir. If hate is the opposite of love, then hate has its root in love. All opposites have their root in their own opposites.
Are you getting tired? So please examine your own life, not listen to what the speaker is saying. Examine, each one of you, your own life honestly and ask these questions. Desire, pleasure, attachment, jealousy, anxiety, fear of losing, is all that love? So can you be free of attachment, not at the last moment when death is there? Can you end attachment to another? See the implications of attachment, the consequences of attachment. Fear, anxiety, jealousy - where there is jealousy there is fear, hate, anger and more, when there is attachment, and is all that love? And what is compassion? Not the definition, you can look it up in a dictionary. What is compassion? What is the relationship between love and compassion, or they are the same movement? When we use the word 'relationship', it implies a duality, a separation, but we are asking what place has love in compassion, or is love the highest expression of compassion?
How can you be compassionate if you belong to any religion, follow any guru, believe in something, believe in your scriptures, in your guru and so on, attached to a conclusion? When you accept your guru, you have come to a conclusion, or when you strongly believe in god or in a saviour or in this or that, can there be compassion? You may do social work, help the poor, out of pity, out of sympathy, out of charity, but is all that love and compassion? So in understanding the nature of love, having that quality, which is mind in the heart. That is, intelligence, which is a very complex question, intelligence is the understanding or the discovering of what love is. Intelligence has nothing whatsoever to do with thought, with cleverness, with knowledge. You may be very clever in your studies, in your job, in being able to argue very cleverly, reasonably, but that is not intelligence. Intelligence goes with love and compassion. And with that intelligence, if there is, if you have come upon it, and you cannot come upon it as an individual; compassion is not yours or mine, like thought is not yours or mine. Where there is intelligence, there is no me and you. And intelligence does not abide in your heart or your mind, that intelligence, which is supreme is everywhere. It is that intelligence that moves the earth and the heavens and the stars because that is compassion.
We ought to talk over together what is death? Are you interested in all this - not interested, that is a stupid word. Are you concerned about all this, or you have grown too old? The young are already old, some of them. And hearing all this, what will you do with it? Just as you leave, forget all this and fall back to your daily monotonous, mediocre life? Ask these questions sirs and ladies.
And also we are going to talk over together this question of death - death being the ending: the ending of our memories, of our attachments, your bank account if you have one. You can't carry it with you but you like to have it till the last moment. So what is death, and who is it that dies? And what is life? Do you understand? Life: who is it that dies and what does it mean to die? We are not talking of the ending of the physical organism, but we are enquiring into life, the ending of life and the great significance of what death means. What is life which we have separated from death? There is a gap of forty, fifty or a hundred years. We want to prolong our lives as long as possible. Modern medicine, surgery, health and all that helps to prolong one's life. I do not know for what, but one wants to prolong it.
So what is life; your life or the life of the universe, life of the earth, life as nature, life which is the vast movement without a beginning and without an end? Don't fall back into the trap of your tradition. That is dead, as dead as a door nail. And when you follow tradition you are already dying, or perhaps you are already dead. So we must examine when we talk about living, life, what does that mean? The life of a tree, the life of the fish in the water, the life of the beauty of a tiger, the life of the universe, this life that seems so extraordinarily vast, immense, without measureless depth. Are we talking about that or your life, yours? If you are talking about your life, what is that life? Going to the office from morning till night for fifty, sixty years, breeding children, your life, belonging to some sect, following some guru? And of course, you believe in that guru so tremendously, you follow him. And conflict from morning till night: conflict as pleasure, conflict as fear and the pursuit of pleasure and desire. This is your life. Is that what we are talking about, the ending of that life? What is important: what lies beyond death, or long incidents of life in your life? What is important: before or after death? If living, life, the beauty of it, the energy of it, the passion of it, the immensity of it, which you have reduced to such a shallow little 'me'. Are you concerned about that, the 'me' that is going to die? I would like to prolong this living. One would like, and this living, we never question, look, ask, doubt, find out, but we mechanically carry on and we are concerned about that 'me', you, dying.
What is the 'me', what is the 'you'? Is it a series of words? Examine it, for god's sake, look at it. Is it your name, your form, how you look, your bank account, your ideals, your beliefs, your experiences? You believe in god, and that belief is you, who have created god. So what are we? Please look, question it, doubt it, ask. Is that what you are frightened of - dying? Knowing your body which is the most extraordinary instrument, badly treated, tortured, drugged, unhealthy - that body, that organism is going to die. You may prolong it for a long time but it is going to come to an end. Or you can say if you are very successful in any field, you can say, I have had a jolly good life, I don't mind dying. So we are asking what is it that dies, and what is it that clings to life? By life, I mean office, sex, pain, pleasure, fighting each other, quarrelling, destroying each other. This is your life, whether you are young or old. Is that what you are afraid of ending? Or are you considering life as a whole, life of the universe, which is so immense, so vast, so incalculable? That is, that life is there, as well as here, as well as this little life you have - this torture, this anxiety, this conflict, this misery, occasional spurts of joy and clarity.
So please, enquire what you are, to which thought clings, to the image you have built about yourself. You see, sirs, it is not the immortality of one's soul, of yourself. 'Yourself' is built through time. Your reward as 'me' from the moment you are born till now. And you accept that 'me' as a reality, and is it real at all, or is it a series of words, a series of memories, accidental experiences which are all put together by thought, and is that 'me' holding on to all this travail of life? If you are not holding it, then life is something totally different: it is a vast incalculable movement. But that can only be seen when the self is not.
Now we ought to ask, what is meditation? May we go on? You are not too tired? If you are tired just get up, please, and go quietly, without disturbing others, because we are going to enquire into something that demands all your attention, that demands your care, your profound consideration. So we are together going to examine what is meditation, not how to meditate, that is the silliest question, but what is the nature, the quality, the structure, the beauty of meditation. The word 'meditation' means to ponder over, to think over, to consider, to probe, to investigate, to look, according to the dictionary. And the word 'meditation' also means measurement, to measure. I believe in sanskrit 'ma' is to measure. And also it has another meaning. So meditation, as it is said in a good dictionary is, to ponder over, think over, consider, look, observe, feel, move, and also it means to measure. Measurement means comparison. Have you ever considered the ancient Greece 450 BC exploded all over Europe. Greece was responsible for measurement. I don't know history but we can observe. They invented measurement. And without measurement there can be no technology. And the western world is par excellence, highest, capable of great technology, which has moved to Japan.
India, the ancient Indians said that measurement is illusion because - now the speaker is saying - all measurement is limited. If there was complete measurement, then there would be instant perfection of all technology. So India exploded all over Asia. Don't be proud of it, it is all gone. You have lost the one thing that was so precious. You have lost the greatest jewel that you have ever had.
So meditation means to think, to ponder, and also it means to measure. That is, measurement: I am this, I must be that. I am comparing myself with you, how clever, beautiful, lovely, and I am not, that is measurement. Following an example is a measurement. Following an ideal is measurement. Wherever there is comparison psychologically, meditation cannot be. You understand all this? Where there is no comparison, where there is no measurement, that I will achieve one day peace or god or illumination or all that stuff - the word used here is self-realization, I do not know what it means: realizing the self, you invent a lot of words and you stick to them. So where there is measurement, comparison, there cannot be meditation. You can compare between two cars, between two materials, a cloth, better paper, better houses, better food, but where the mind thinks in terms psychologically of better, meditation is not possible. You can sit cross-legged, do all kinds of yoga, all kinds of control, where there is control there is measurement. I wonder if you see all this.
Are you getting tired? Sorry, allow me another five minutes, it's all over then.
So to meditate: in meditation there must be no effort. What you call meditation is to repeat some words, repeat a mantra. I have been told the meaning of that word is to ponder over not becoming, which is not measuring. And also it means to absolutely deny all self-centred activity. I believe that is the root meaning of that word: not becoming and totally not living in a self-centred way. You can repeat all the words, mantras, breathe properly, you know, follow system after system, if one system does not suit you, take another system, methods, go off to Japan to learn Zen, or the latest guru will tell you how to meditate. All that implies control. Where there is control, there must be conflict and there must be measurement and that is not meditation. We are going to go into a little bit.
Meditation is to live a diligent life. Meditation is not separate from daily living. It is not going off into a little corner, meditating for twenty minutes every day or every afternoon, every evening; that is just having a siesta - you know what a siesta is? Having a sleep in the afternoon. So there is no system. System implies practice. Practice means measurement - from what you are to what you want to be. And you may be practising the wrong note. And probably you are. And you call that meditation. And that meditation is so totally separate from your daily living. So find out whether it is possible to live a daily life of meditation, which means no measurement at any time. It is dangerous, what the speaker is saying, so please understand it very carefully. In meditation there is no control, because the controller is the controlled. I went into it the other day, I won't go into again now. In meditation there is no will because will is desire. The essence of desire is will - 'I will meditate, I will practice this day after day, discipline'. In meditation there is no effort at all because there is no controller.
And meditation implies awareness: awareness of the earth, the beauty of the earth, the dead leaf, the dying dog, the dog that is diseased, not just awareness of something or the other, to be aware of your environment; to be aware of your neighbour; to be aware of the colours you carry, why you wear that colour and those beads, to be aware of that; to be aware of the beauty of the wind among the leaves; to be aware of your thoughts, your feelings. That means to be aware without choice - just to be aware. That hightens your sensitivity. To observe diligently everything. When you say, I will do something, do it, never forgetting what you have said. Do not say something you don't mean. That is part of meditation. That is, to be aware of your feelings, your conditioning, your opinions, your judgments, and to your beliefs, so that in that awareness, there is no choice - just to be aware of the beauty of the earth, the skies and the lovely waters. And when you are so aware, then there is attention. To attend: to attend to what the speaker is saying, not only to the speaker but to what your wife is telling you, or your husband is telling you or your children are telling you, what the politicians are telling you - their trickery, their search for power, position; to attend. When you so profoundly attend, there is no centre as the 'me' to attend. That is also meditation.
Then if you have gone that far with your mind - not your mind - if you have moved that far, if the mind has moved that far, then what is religion? Religion is none of these things that you have: the temples, and the content of the temples, the puja, the Tirupatis, the churches, all that is not religion. The rituals, the beliefs that are put together by thought, which is a material process and you worship that which thought has created, which is what you have created. Have you ever realized all the gods, you have created them out of your fear, out of your wanting security, and the rituals day after day, puja, the mass is another form of entertainment. I know you don't agree, but listen to it. You will go on doing it because your mind is conditioned, afraid, wants some kind of security, if not here perhaps somewhere else. So a religious man does not belong to any group, to any religion, has no belief, because his mind is free, unafraid, because intelligence is the highest supreme form of ultimate security, not the intelligence of the cunning thought. Intelligence of compassion. And that intelligence has no doubt, no uncertainty, no fear, which is something immense in the universe.
And where there is attention, there is silence. If you attend now to what the speaker is saying, attend with your ears, with your eyes, with your nerves, with your whole body, attend, then in that quality of attention there is great silence, unfathomable silence. That silence has never been touched by thought. And only then, which man has searched from time immemorial, something sacred, something nameless, supreme. It is only that mind that is utterly free from all the travails of life, it is only such a mind that can find the supreme. That means meditation, which is the expression of daily activity.